Fwurg

[Senator Danar Tassar]

((OOC: This thread is private to Danar Tassar and Nehket Aeka.))

Senator Danar Tassar has invited Senator Nehket Aeka for a private discussion around slavery. He has reserved one of the suites in Purgatory where they could meet and talk in private.

Tassar was already there, drinking tea and waiting for Aeka to arrive.

[Nehket Aeka]

Senator Nehket Aeka is a little surprised at the invitation and the subject. Only a little, as she had expected the topic to come up for a while now. She just had not expected it to come up in this way.

Since this was a private meeting she opts for an elegant and modest evening dress instead of wearing her ceremonial armour of office. Knowing that her appearance would not be an asset in the coming meeting, she makes sure to dress in a way that downplayed her physical appearance.

As she makes her way to the private suite she orders her thoughts for the upcoming discussion.

"Senator Tassar, it is good to see you.", she greets him warmly upon entering the suite.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar was dressed in an informal piece of clothing resembling something between the formal Teprogrenaian armours and regular informal attire. With a chest piece, long sleeves and bracers keeping the sleeves together at the end of the arms. A fancy loincloth was kept in place by several straps around the legs.

"Greetings, Senator Nehket Aeka. Good to see you as well." Tassar greeted back with a smile.

"I would love to start with small talk, but given the topic, I believe we have much to discuss, so I will skip the pleasantries and go right to business."

In contrast to what Tassar said, he first calmly took a sip of tea, giving Aeka some time to react or interfere.

"As you might know, we of the Teprogrenaian Consensus never were a fan of slavery. Currently, a group of factions are bonding together to start more actively campaign against slavery, and we have joined them. However, we fear that instead of forming a decent plan and open discussions, this group will rush to the senate go shout and point fingers.

This put us of the Consensus in a little bit of an awkward situation, since at one hand we are against slavery, but at the other hand we see the merit of not actively going against each others culture. And we see no benefit in getting angry or starting a fight with pointing fingers within the senate.

So that's why we asked to speak with you of the Veolian Commonwealth, to work on a solution before the senate is split in two."

[Nehket Aeka]

((OOC: I am assuming that this thread, as is normal on the forum here, happens in quantum time. As I understand it this means that, strange though it may be from an outside point of view, the events from other contexts (especially the [ Senate ] Basic declaration of sentient rights discussion thread) become known in this context in real time.))

Aeka sits down as Tassar takes a sip and continues his introduction to the subject of the evening.

"I am afraid that your fears have already materialized, as the rushing to the senate has started just this afternoon. The opening of the debate by senator Harek sounded promising. A basic declaration of sentient rights could help bridge the differences between several of the Union's cultures, and it would bring several interesting questions to light.

Instead, with the latest remark by senator Harek it has become clear that this is not about sentient rights at all. Though he makes sure not to mention the Veolian Commonwealth by name, it is clear to all that this is nothing but a badly camouflaged attack against the Veolian way of life.

I will not bore you with the myriad arguments I have prepared for the upcoming debate.", she said with a smile, "I am sure that you can envision several scenario's where this attack will reflect badly on those associated with it."

Aeka takes a sip of tea as she thinks on how she wishes to continue here.

"I agree that this topic could very well spin out of control quickly.

So, let me start by saying that the Veolian Commonwealth is willing to look for a compromise. Understand that I do not do so from a position of weakness induced by the feeling that this conflict can not be won, there will be a point where the Veolian Commonwealth will put its foot down and start hitting back to preserve our sovereignty and freedom of culture.

Instead, I wish to look for a compromise because I do not have to agree with the point that is being made to recognize the strength of that belief in others. I understand the strong emotions that come with a fervent belief that one's ideology is the only correct ideology."

Aeka takes another sip of tea to let her agreement on wanting to find a solution sink in.

"Senator Harek speaks only in vague generic terms, as he is wont to do, and this is of little help in finding a solution.

So, before I can discuss a compromise that would be to our satisfaction, I ask you to elaborate firstly on how you view the aspect of the veolian culture you call slavery, and secondly what you and your companions are trying to accomplish exactly."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

((OOC: I think quantum time is appropriate.))

"Yes I just noticed the opening of the debate to my surprise, we did not expect Harek to act this fast." Where Tassar put emphasis on 'this'. Then he continued: "It is good to hear that the Commonwealth is willing to look for a solution.

Our view on slavery is that intelligent races should be respected, and they deserve to live in freedom to make their own choices. The way the Veolian Commonwealth approaches slavery thus makes our viewpoints rather complicated. Your slaves chose to be slaves. So although we are puzzled why you seems it necessary to have a slave, we recognize that you are treating your slaves with respect, and that they chose to have no choice. This together with that we also won't like it when other factions force their believes onto our culture makes us reluctant to make any laws which forces cultural changes. At the other hand, we are not afraid to speak our opinion, and to let the Commonwealth know that we don't agree with slavery.

Our companions are trying to remove slavery from the Union altogether, since they see this as a barbaric and uncivilized practice. By doing, so, they might blindly follow emotions and not well thought reasoning.

The Consensus is rather divided into what it hopes to achieve. At one hand, it wants to free the Galaxy of slavery since we also believe the concept to be rather barbaric, at the other hand we are reluctant to act to respect other cultures, partially we even don't really care, as long as not one of the Consensus is practised into slavery. So what we hope to achieve is to get rid of forced slavery, and to speak out our dissatisfaction with slavery in general. Thereby not forcing your and the Praetorian culture into abandoning your ways, but give you incentives."

[Nehket Aeka]

Aeka listens with great interest to the nuanced explanation by Tassar.

"Senator Tassar, it appears you speak only with the voice of the Teprogrenaian Consensus. Am I to understand that the others on your group do not wish to look for a compromise?", the veolian's tone was clearly one of concern.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"It is true I speak only for the Consensus, as we have sought you out on our own accord. The last meeting of this anti-slavery front, as we call it by lack of decent name, was not very efficient in terms of getting to a solution, and was mainly led by emotions.

So a short answer: We of the Consensus do not know, but we believe it is faction dependent.

We do not know how far the other factions will go in their believes against slavery and thus if they are willing to compromise. We believe that the majority of the senate will have to accept a compromise, if this is a fair and acceptable one. There are always some fanatic factions, but trying to please those often is unreasonable."

[Nehket Aeka]

"I understand."

Aeka takes another sip of tea as she weighs the different options. As she starts talking Aeka's voice was pleasant and calm, clearly she cared about the subject but she does not let her other feelings get in the way of civilized discussion.

"What you and your companions are asking of us has far-reaching consequences. You are asking us to do away with a practice that is deeply rooted in our culture and has been a part of our legal system for millenia. You are not asking us for a simple concession on the prices of , you are asking us to fundamentally change our cultural identity because you feel our culture is wrong."

"I feel that if you are willing to ask us to change such a fundamental element of our culture, you should be willing to reciprocate in kind. On several occasions in the past have we expressed our opinion that cybernetics should not be used to go beyond a species' biological capability, and we have also on some occasions expressed our opinion on the immoral use of birth control. We firmly belief that both factors result in a decline in the quality of natural selection, yet we have restrained ourselves from trying to use our influence in the senate to force such issues.

In return for sacrificing one of our oldest traditions, we ask that you reciprocate by accepting the following measures to create a Union-wide improvement of the quality of natural selection: a restriction in cybernetics and artificial birth control.

We want restrictions on all synthetic implants; only those medically necessary are to be implanted, and no synthetic implant is bestow abilities that go above and beyond what the species is naturally capable of. Those that are augmented beyond the medically necessary are to be sterilized so as to prevent their unfair advantages over other mates from polluting the gene pool. Furthermore we want a Union-wide prohibition of artificial birth control and artificially induced abortion, unless necessary for medical reasons, so as to offer every unborn child a chance at existence."

Aeka took another sip of tea, and let her proposal sink in.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

“I see,” Tassar said after a moment of consideration, “ It sounds like the Commonwealth is putting great weight on a healthy gene pool, something we of the Consensus totally agree with. However, we don’t believe that the restrictions you propose are all in the best interest of a healthy gene pool. But more importantly, we believe that the reciprocation you ask for is not on a similar level as it has much further reaching consequences. In fact, when we look at the total amount of serious affected souls, this is one of the occasions that the Consensus alone will outnumber the Veolian Commonwealth. And then there is still the Astrian Colonial Authority and, on an unreliable basis, the IO protocol. Of course when talking about ethical issues, the amount of affected souls is always a matter of debate but shouldn’t be a determining factor. Still it is something to keep in mind.

About sterilizing cyborgs, we think this is overreacting, especially when a cyborg is temporarily enhanced for its job. Most of our Fecta have enhanced abilities in some way in order to better fulfill their job. If they change jobs, this enhancement is often removed. Having them still sterilized while they are no longer having an unfair advantage is not in any ones best interest. And we are not even talking about that all cyborgs have in some ways capabilities that goes above or beyond what a species is naturally capable of. Simply because a durasteel arm is just different than one made from flesh and blood.”

Tassar took a sip from his tea before he continued:

“And, there is the point that it is not yet proven that the use of cybernetics has a negative impact on the gene pool. So a Union wide research for that is necessary first.

We of the Consensus can agree with, and are willing to pay the cost for, a complete genetic scan of the Consensus. We also believe that a long term experiment is in order to determine the effects of cybernetics on the gene pool. We think a test area is most suited. We can assign an area on Dhiahamara or The Cradle to the rules you submitted, and let a group of volunteers live in that area for a couple of generations. Over time, the genetic codes are closely observed to determine the genetic health. This will be something which is in every ones best interest.

We are against the point on prohibiting artificial birth control and abortion. How far goes birth control? If two people can have sex, but don’t have, does this count as birth control? And how do you view abortion? I understand that with mammals, abortion is something like removing the unborn from the womb. But Teprogrena lay egg-sacks. Does not nourishing an egg-sack count as an abortion? And are medical reasons only physical, or also psychological?

We believe that talking about an unborn child in this way is simply too vague.”

[Nehket Aeka]

Aeka drinks small sips from her cup of tea while she listens closely to Tassar's arguments. When he is done she remains silent for a while as she thinks over the points he makes.

She then gently puts down the cup.

"Senator, we have now reached the point in our conversation where we will discover if we will ever be able to reach a compromise. I shall explain to you why I think this.

You want us to stop our practice of having slaves and argue that we must do so on moral grounds; that is you claim that it is an immoral practice because every intelligent being deserves respect.

I have come here in good faith, and have refrained from opposing your position. Instead, I have presented you with a compromise on a matter which is of great moral gravity for us: the deceival of one's mate about one's biological qualities is immoral and should be prevented. In the same line, we view artificial abortion and birth control as immoral. In reply, you reject our proposed compromise because you feel that we have not provided enough evidence and scientific support for our position."

"You apply a double standard to the situation. While your position needs only be supported on moral grounds, our position must be supported by rigorous scientific evidence.


I am willing to seek a compromise that satisfies both our worlds, but I am only willing to do so if you do not continue to hold your world view as the moral high ground of which the we are but deviants that must justify any change from your morality with rigorous scientific evidence, lest it be rejected outright. Or, if you insist on scientific rigor, you will have to justify your whole proposal to the same level of scientific scrutiny, where I suggest that we will first do a study of a few generations to determine the impact of our form of slavery on the happiness of those we protected and care for.

What will it be, senator?"

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar looked at his jar of tea while he thought about Aekas words, he then played a little with the nozzle of the jar weighting the tip like he was weighting his words. He then looked up again at Aeka: "You are right and make a good point. So instead of directly continue on the topic of a compromise, lets take a step back.

We of the Consensus came here to look for a solution for the political split at hand, both internal and in the senate. This does not necessarily have to be in the form of a compromise.

Luckily for us, The Consensus and the Commonwealth, senator Harek have adopted his point against slavery in a long list of debatable points. We of the Political Consult can agree on stretching this discussion for an eternity, including calling motions if necessary. This will satisfy the Consensus as not only there will be a healthy debate on how every world is different, the whole slavery issue will be postponed indefinitely in the senate.

The Consensus and the Commonwealth will always have its differences, this will never change, but this way we can continue like before, without being forced into making choices which are bad no matter what.

Now back to the topic of the compromise, you made clear that both your and our, the consensus, views are ethical views with equal value. But since we believe that the practical impact of your proposal is much bigger on our world than your world, we are unwilling to accept it in its proposed form. However, your suggestion of a study on the impact on slavery is actually a very good one.

Even when the sentient rights/slavery debate will eventually come to the point on choosing to ban slavery or not, we, the Consensus and the Commonwealth, can already have started the studies and use it as leverage to postpone any vote till the results of the experiments and study. We can even call a motion of inquiry if required."

[Nehket Aeka]

"As an aside from our discussion, from senator Harek's statements in the senate, I can only conclude that he is not planning on having the actual debate on this long list. He simply states that the overview is for discussion, and that the nuances are lost on the overview. Yet immediately thereafter he talks of a vote already. It seems that he is in a very hasty mood. Might I suggest that you use your influence with your allies to slow things down a bit?"

Aeka took a sip of tea to break her current train of thought and to get back to the actual subject of the meeting.

As she sipped, she was clearly thinking, as if something was bothering her.

"I disagree with your assesment that the practical impact of my proposal is much bigger on your world. Your original proposal forces over 24 billion people to change their culture. The proposed compromise only affects a little over 4 billion people on your world. Could you please explain how my proposed compromise has a larger practical impact on your world? As I see it, you are 20 billion people shy of even having a balanced impact."

Aeka's tone was inquisitive, not accusational.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"But as expected, not everyone in the senate seems to accept this proposal as it is. Any vote forced through now is deemed to fail, maybe silencing the whole discussion. That might even be in our favour."

As Tassar started explaining, he sounded like, and probably had, though about this already for a while.

"Not everyone in the Commonwealth has to make large adaptations. For the majority or your people, the commoners, nothing changes actually. You see, we of the Consensus are not against your culture of having an individual as an extension of a nobleman or woman. In fact, we think your solution to be at two places at the same time is quite elegant. However, we fail to see how this can only be done by means of slavery. So if slavery would be abolished in the Commonwealth, the commoners hardly would experience any changes. They still have to deal with the extension of the noble person. Only the nobles who have slaves and deal directly with the matter of slaves are practically affected. And since the Commonwealth only has a few million slaves, the actual impact of not having slaves should be small.

With the Consensus at the other hand, over half our people live by means of cybernetics. Cybernetics are used on a daily basis for work. When they have to limit their capabilities, our production and economical capabilities will be severely reduced, let alone the direct lives of the cyborgs. Sterilizing over half our population would have severe impact on our future existence and our changes of survival as a species."

[Nehket Aeka]

"You make a compelling argument. Were this an economic issue, I would gladly acknowledge it."

"However, this is a not a case of economic calculations and rationality. If it were, you would not have brought forward the issue of slavery. This is a case of morality and ethics. You oppose our cultural values because you find them immoral and want us to adjust. In return, we ask you to reject one of your cultural values we find immoral and want you to adjust.

Your argument that the practical impact on our world is smaller is an argument that is based on the rationale that only those that directly own a slave are affected by your demands. But this is not the case. That line of reasoning does not address the fact that you still ask every veolian to conform to your sense of morality. Regardless of who owns a slave, you still demand that every person who believes in the moral values of the veolian culture change their ideas."

Ajava took a sip of tea.

"Next to that if I were to accept your argument of least impact, which I do not, I would feel compelled to point out that from our point of view your current practice of cyberneticism negatively affects 24 billion veolians, next to the 4 billion teprogrenaians that benefit. So, stopping it would be the route of least impact: instead of negatively affecting 24 billion people and immorally benefiting only 4 billion stopping the practice would benefit 24 billion by putting 4 billion back on their normal level of being.

So, I reject your utilitarian argument and suggest that we do not use that line of reasoning. I feel it will only lead to unfounded claims of 'least impact'. Focusing on the finding of a compromise that is acceptable for both our worlds on moral grounds will most likely lead to a more positive outcome."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

“Once again, we do not actively seek to adjust your culture. We seek a solution to the looming segregation in the senate and potential negative consequences for the future this uphold. So we agree to leave that line of reasoning and also look for other available options. The compromise as proposed by you will simply not be accepted by the Consensus, even one of the two options, sterilization or limited implantation will not be acceptable for the Consults as a suitable compromise.”

[Nehket Aeka]

"Though I still feel strongly about the abundant and immoral use of cybernetics in both the Teprogrenaian Consensus and the Astrian Colonial Authority, I understand your resistance to a compromise in this direction. After all, no world feels the desire to have it's culture and development dictated by another. I would be interested to know your opinion on the matter should I simply state that the abolishment of slavery will not be acceptable to the Veolian Commonwealth as a suitable compromise..."

Aeka took a look at her cup of tea, but decides against taking a sip.

"Instead of dwelling on this any further, we shall seek other facets of compromise. I have several ideas that we can investigate, but I would like to hear a proposal for a compromise from you first. I have proposed the first compromise, which was not acceptable to you. So, now I look to you to propose the second compromise, which would clearly be acceptable to you. Whether it is acceptable to us remains to be seen."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

“If the Veolian Commonwealth would say that they believe that the abolishment of slavery would not be acceptable, we of the Consensus would understand the position and look for other ways of maintaining a healthy relationship.

The idea of an investigation sounded very compelling to us. Investigating the effect of cybernetics on the health of the gene pool and investigating the social and mental effect of slavery on the involved population.”

[Nehket Aeka]

Nehket Aeka took her time to think about the words of the teprogrenaian senator.

"I agree that an investigation seems like a compelling course to take. Both investigations will take some time, and can only be done thoroughly if a few generations are investigated.

While I appreciate your desire to take these things slow, others in the senate will not be as yielding. Hence, we are looking for a compromise that would work for both our worlds as a basis for further discussion with the senate."

"Right now, the discussion on sentient rights is a vehicle for the anti-slavery faction, and I think that we will best achieve our goals if those two discussions are separated. Right now they can hide their arguments in lengthy proposals and deflect criticism by claiming that we are against sentient rights. This is clearly not true, as the Veolians are proponents of a good definition of sentient rights.

The compromises we discuss here and the insight we gain from this discussion will allow us to better discuss the separation of these two issues, and to discuss a compromise in the senate itself. The remunzians, astrians and hiocans will not back down and are focused in forcing us to accept their demands through legislation. So we will reply by keeping to the spirit of the Union and engage them in public dialogue over this issue. It would help if we have some idea of the kinds of compromises that we can present.

So please, propose a compromise that would be acceptable to the Teprogrenaian Consensus."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar took quite a time to think, while he drank from his tea, finally he said: “Well to be honest and my shame, we have never thought that it will actually come to the point of a compromise, and therefore have never actually considered our options around a compromise.

A financial compromise of the sorts would be acceptable, but that would also defeat the whole purpose. We can make a governmental compromise, introducing nobility in a way into the Consensus or not allowing people from the lower Consults to become representatives to other worlds.

Or maybe ecological compromises, reduce pollution and start natural reserves for the protection of endangered wildlife.”

[Nehket Aeka]

Aeka looked at the teprogrenaian senator with an amused expression.

"Do not worry, senator Tassar. I did not actually expect to be able to even come this far in finding a workable compromise. I half expected to get bogged down in semantics about what constitutes slavery, and to what specific concept you object."

"Let us see what appears interesting, and continue our discussion with that as a basis for now.", she said before taking a sip of tea and putting down the cup.

"I agree that a financial compromise would be acceptable, though I estimate that we will not be able to agree to a sum. And taking the average of the proposed sums will leave us both unsatisfied. So, we shall leave the idea where it is: said but not used.

While the Commonwealth is a great proponent of ecological balance, we have sponsored several breakthroughs in recycling technology and are seeking further ways to preserve the diverse ecosystem of our worlds, we also think that your proposed reduction in pollution and the creation of natural reserves is not so much a compromise as a necessity. Eventually, you will do this of your own accord, or risk your world becoming an extint rock hurtling through the void.

This leaves us with the final proposal: the introduction of nobility, in a way, into the Concensus or not allowing people from the lower Consults to become representatives. This proposal intrigues me. How would you propose that this would be implemented? Is the concept of nobility not utterly foreign to your people?"

[Senator Danar Tassar]

“The application of nobility is foreign, the concept however is not. Having close parties with extra privileges who take responsibility for the majority of the people is something we are very familiar with, only we do not select them by bloodline.

So we of the political Consult propose that the implementation would be in the following line: We of the Consensus would create a set of official noble titles for the higher Consults alongside with laws preventing the newly introduced commoner to simply enter the noble Consults. The line of succession will be determined by Consult-line, the next head, or spokesperson, of the Consult will come from the Consult in question.

Although, I believe it would be more likely that the spokesperson and the chairman of the Consult will be different people, this will make it easier to convince everybody within the Consensus to implement this system of nobility in our, the Consensus, current governmental system.”

[Nehket Aeka]

"From my, admitedly limited, view on your culture it seems like you propose to introduce hollow titles. If I understand you correctly, the spokesperson would be ennobled, yet the real power would lie with the chairman of the consult. I think that I have missed somthing?"

"But even so, would a more fitting compromise not be the acknowledgement of veolian nobility by the Union? That is something that does not influence any single world's culture, yet it is a strong show of good will towards those that are forced to give up one of their fundamental rights."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar thought for a moment while he played with the end of the tube from he tea-jar.

"First on your first question: both the spokesman as the chairman might get a noble title, but having them share the power and responsibility would make implementation easier and more smoothly within the Consensus.

About your proposal: We of the Consensus believe we do not fully understand your proposal. Would you propose that we of the Union acknowledge that the nobility from the Commonwealth are the Nobility from the Commonwealth? Or do you propose that we of the Union grant the rights which your, the commonwealth, nobility have within the Commonwealth on other worlds as well? Because we of the Consensus think that no world would really accept the Veolian nobility as their nobility.


On the other hand..." Tassar added with a smile and a tone of a joke, "assassinations would be acceptable according to the standards of Veolian Nobility, wouldn't it?"

[Nehket Aeka]

Nehket Aeka burst out in laughing. "You are a jokster, senator. A law granting veolian nobility the rights they have in the Veolian Commonwealth on every member world is absurd. That would be aking to everyone simply agreeing to become our vassals. I am of course fully in favour, but as you say, no world would really accept that."

After taking a large sip of tea, she continued in a more serious tone.

"What I meant was that the Union officially recognize the relevance and importance of the veolian nobility. This would come with some ceremonial benefits. The use of the correct order of precedence at state dinners and when speaking in the senate. Right of way in all Union transportation corridors such as hovercar lanes on Unity, or on Bozzy Spone junctions, for vessels carrying person of nobility, and precedence when recruiting commisioned officers for any military or intelligence office."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar couldn't help to laugh along with Aeka.

After her explanation he said: "Those rights sounds promising. Especially if the Union would recognize all nobility and other persons in seats of power. Although the touch of a comprise for abolishing slavery will be lost when it is for all Union members.

Well actually," Tassar said like he just though of it, "it does not have to be such a loss of compromise. If slavery would be banned, the Veolian Commonwealth could claim that the nobility and persons in seats of power within the Union have a harder task of doing their job since they could no longer use a slave to help them in their work. To compromise this loss of efficiency, the nobility and persons in power require Union wide recognition of their importance to do their work.

I am saying this from the top of my head so it might require some rephrasing."