Fwurg

[Nehket Aeka]

"I agree that it is not really a fitting compromise if we have to give up slavery in exchange for the Union acknowledging that the veolian nobility is the same as every other person in a seat of power. In fact, that is effectively asking us to change our culture to level an insult at us... After all, there is a big difference between being a noble, and simply being in power.

"In my opinion, there are only six worlds in the Union that acknowledge true nobility at this moment. Given the large variety of cultures, llowing 'all nobility' to benefit from these rights would simply mean that most worlds will simply declare all their citizens of the nobility and claim these rights for all of their citizens."

Aeka takes another sip of tea as a small silence falls.

"I think that any compromise in this direction should explicitly state which worlds' nobility will be entitled to the rights granted by the compromise. Otherwise it will be an empty gesture at best, and an insult at worst... Don't you agree?"

[Senator Danar Tassar]

“I agree that a compromise in this direction should not be empty or insulting. The problem we of the Consensus foresee is that, in case we of the Union agree to provide privileges to these six factions, this might feed unrest out of discontent. Imagine when the leader of a faction, lets say the Lord-Master from the ACA, must give a low noble, in his eyes commoner, priority on the Bossy spine just because he is a so called noble? We of the Consensus know that over time, this would grow discontent within our people.

Over time, like a year or so, when the factions start to forget why the nobilities received these privileges, this might even start a new discussion concerning the removal of these, by then, arbitrary privileges.

This is what we believe would happen since this is a path that we would try to promote within the other factions.

However, this might not be a bad course to fare. Over time, it allows a new position for the Veolians to negotiate together with the other factions with nobility a new compromise where you of the Commonwealth can make greater demands since you stand together with other factions about an issue concerning more people.”

[Nehket Aeka]

"You make a good argument."

"Given the egalitarian nature of the declaration of sentient rights as proposed by the Hiocan Society, I fear that they will not be amendable to this idea. And will, as you say, immediately start to erode the rights granted to the nobility. Even if only for the sake of keeping up the absurd appearance of everyone being equal."

"I don't think that greater demands can be made at that point. We did already concede part of our traditions, so everyone will simply assume that we ought to change again -- of course shrouding their arguments in nice words and thinly veiled allusions to our earlier acceding to their demands on slavery and maybe even pointing out the flexibility of our culture to accept change."

"The only thing we can do at that moment is point out that these rights were gained through the surrender of part of our culture, and that we will only accept the reversal of these rights if we are to govern our own culture again. Yet at that moment, our culture has already been forced to change. And revoking rights is much easier than unchanging a culture."

"Maybe we should seek a compromise in a different direction still?"

Aeka took a sip of tea to allow senator Tassar to interject, should he want to.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"We think certain benefits for nobility are still worth exploring further, but we, the two of us, should keep in mind that the rest of the factions at least need the illusion that they receive enough benefits to be satisfied." Tassar said.

"The main challenge of the compromise is when it encompasses certain rights, these rights can be revoked. So for the compromise to succeed, either it should contain something irrevocable, or something the other factions believe to be fair and thus will not try to revoke.

That is why we of the Consensus proposed to include persons in seats of power in the compromise. Of course, the definition of a person in a seat of power requires more thought, we would want the compromise to be meaningful after all, but for now we could try to run along the with the basic idea. That way every person with influence within a faction should be in favour of the compromise, since they get some benefits out of this and thus will not think of revoking this right. But at the same time, the benefit for the Commonwealth should be substantially larger, as they have more nobility, and most likely more persons in power.

We of the Union could even include a clause to determine the level of priority. After all three persons with equal priority on a cross road would still not work. But giving more important persons more benefits would work. And the level of importance can be determined by the number of people falling under them."

[Nehket Aeka]

"I fail to see why the rest of factions should receive benefits. Are they surrendering part of their culture as well?"

"It seems to me as if you have already started the process of eroding these rights. By trying to widen their application to anyone that has even a modicum of influence, and by instituting some way of determining the so-called level of importance based purely on the population of one's domain, instead of on one's titles."

"A compromise that gives a benefit to every Union members is not a compromise at all. That is simply the Veolian Commonwealth giving something up while, at the same time, every Union member receives something. I suggest, as before, that we seek a compromise elsewhere..."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

Tassar put down his tea-tube to fully focus on the Veolian Senator: "It seems that we of the Consensus have not clearly communicated the idea, so let me go deeper in why we proposed it the way we did: To start with, you already stated, and we agree, that a compromise should be a lasting one, and that granted rights can be revoked. So If we of the Union would go for a compromise, we should do so in a way that will not be quickly reverted. Otherwise any compromise created now will lead to more discontent in the future and more discussions which could have been avoided by thinking things trough from the beginning.

Therefore if we of the Union would grant special rights only to the Veolian Nobility, than over time factions will be discontent with these unequal rights. The most likely thing then will either revoke the rights of the Commonwealth, or grant special rights to the other factions as well. The fact that these rights were given as part of a compromise is easily forgotten after all.

When the rights of the Veolian Nobility is revoked, than it will be once again the Union versus the Veolians, and we have this whole discussion all over again with as most likely result leaving the Veolian Commonwealth in discontent. If the other factions will also gain rights, than it will likely be the Veolians versus the Union, as you would like more rights as a compromise for abolishing slavery and we have this discussion again. If we only grant rights to the Union nobility than this will leave all the other factions in discontent. So any of these future paths will not lead to any improvement compared to the current situation. The only faction who will be satisfied are the Remunzians.

So the best we we see is to construct a compromise which makes everybody happy, so there won't be a backlash. Some people will just be more happy than other people."

At this point, Tassar picked up again his tube, but didn't drink yet. "Therefore by granting the rights to every person in a seat of power and the Nobility, everyone who is in the position of making tumult of this compromise won't do so because they would most likely loose their privileges granted by this compromise. The fact that the compromise will be set up in such a way that the Veolians will gain substantially more benefits will most likely either be lost by most people, or be ignored as they are blinded by their own gain.

And the Veolians gain substantially more benefits. All your nobility gain privileges, and any other influential person as well. It is no secret that the Veolian Commonwealth has the highest population of any faction within the Union. That is why we added the clause for the level of importance. This should ensure that the majority of the Veolian Nobility still has priority over the majority of every other person within the Union, since one house is easily as large as an entire small faction."

Tassar took a sip from his tea to let his words sink in.

"So silently this would say: 'sure leader of a faction, you have priority at the crossway, but after the Veolian.' You see, the idea of this proposal is that the Veolian Commonwealth would still have priority over all the other Union members, a few exceptions there like the chancellor there, while the other factions won't think about revoking these rights. Even the Veolian nobility who has no money and no power anymore still has priority over the common people within the Union.

In short and in other words: Yes, all factions get benefits, but with the careful wording and ruling, the Veolians get benefits over the other factions. In principal the Veolians go first, the rest go second.

I hope this better explains how our idea is honestly meant as a reasonably compromise and lasting solution?"

[Nehket Aeka]

"I see."

Aeka was silent for a moment. It was not clear whether this was because she was mentally analyzing the proposal, or because she was simply caught off guard by the unexpected savvy of the proposal.

"This still does not prevent other factions from simply inventing new positions and making a mockery of the compromise by elevating all their population to 'rule' over half of the population on paper and claiming these rights.

If we go this route, I still feel that it would be better to simply list those worlds whose nobility is actually acknowledged. You are right that this might create to conditions for a renewed political battle in the future, but I am sure that we can still bring back memories of the slavery discussion at that moment -- that should be enough to remember everyone of the reason."

"If not, we can always reinstate slavery.", she adds in a joking tone.


"Something different that might work out is a completely different approach.

Say that the Veolian Commonwealth is willing to remove a single aspect from our idea of slavery: the fact that slaves can not leave their master. If, instead of being owned and not able to leave, slaves would in fact be able to leave at a moment's notice. This would remove all complaints I have heard so far.

In return, fully sequenced genetic analysis, including name and known ancestryof every living individual in the Union is given to the Veolian Commonwealth.

What do you think of this?"

[Nehket Aeka]

"A thought occurs to me. What if we simply start out the compromise on the acknowledgement of nobility by simply listing all worlds that actually have nobility? That way other worlds can simply arrange for marriages to introduce nobility into their world. It would still hold meaning, while remaining accesible to all worlds, eventually."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"Listing the worlds with Nobility is a good idea indeed and if that would be the compromise we, the two of us, are basically done. But anything benefiting solely nobility would still be a skewed compromise. Next is the point that not all Union members have marriages the way most worlds with nobility have. What if a Veolian Nobleman joins a Teprogrenaian Consult becomes the Consult Noble? What about the children? And if the children change Consults? You see, in the Consensus your Consults are your family. We of the Consensus foresee that these differences in marriage and view on family will become very complex very fast.

Removing the single aspect that slaves cannot leave their master would be sufficient for us. We even do not care if it is on a moments notice or lets say, six months grace period.

We of the Consensus are thinking and debating for a long time about a full genetic analysis. But handing over full genetic data together with names is something we will refuse. The reason is simple: We are not against giving our names, and we are probably not against giving our raw genetic data. But when combined many privacy issues rise. Unwanted meddling of insurance companies, targeted advertisement, individual targeted genetic weapons. The list of potential threads or unwanted actions goes on and on.

Which rise the question to us: Why should the Veolian Commonwealth desire the full genetic data together with the names of every individual of the Union?"

[Nehket Aeka]

"We have a long tradition of registering genetic lineages of our nobility, and our genealogical archives with historical data reach back into the ages. This has led to superior marriage arrangements and strong offspring. More recently we have started a campaign to make these beneficial services available to every citizen of the Commonwealth."

"The archives now have a coverage of over 99% of the population of the commonwealth, and have been in extensive use for both matchmaking and scientific research. We want to offer the same benefits to all citizens of the Union, allowing them to find their genetic matches across the multitude of worlds and greatly benefitting the coming generations of Union citizens."

"We have learned that many worlds in the Union do not give their genetic lineage the importance it deserves, and they do not have even the most rudimentary of genetic archives. We want to start with the creation, curation and maintenance of such encompassing archives as soon as possible. We are willing to fund and coordinate the whole endavour of collection, cataloguing, and sequencing on a Union-wide scale to help with this. But to do so, we need a basis to start working from, and we can not do so with anonymous genetic sequences -- those would only lead to guessing and ambiguity."

From the tone of Aeka's voice it is clear that this was a topic she cares about.

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"Having a full genetic analysis is something we want as well. Especially since half our population is depending on cybernetics to fully function in the society and we don't want to end up like the Astrians as a potentially dead race. Therefore we of the Consensus, but the technological and the philosophical Consults in particular want to conduct a full genetic analysis to determine our genetic condition and the effects of cybernetic use on the genes. But a time stamp and health condition should be enough, potentially with parental data. But even than the data is still anonymous.

As I said, there are many privacy issues when you connect genetic data to individuals especially when this data is also held by a third party which we have no power over."

[Nehket Aeka]

"Can you give me a few concrete examples of these privacy issues? Because the things you state earlier seem a bit far-fetched to me. Targeted advertisements are already a reality, and your genetic code would not give advertisers much more to work with. It could be argued that individually targeted genetic weapons fall under the first kinewa convention. And the meddling of insurance companies, well, do you really see a problem with veolian insurance companies offering cheaper policies to Union citizens? After all, if Teprogrenaian insurance companies do not do so, the overall effect would be on average cheaper insurance."

"Anonymous data is of no use when building a genetic archive, and we have little care for someone's health condition unless it is due to a genetic defect."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"The problem lies not with all the benefits for normally healthy people," Tassar said, "the problem arise for the people who have a genetic chance of being unhealthy. When people have a chance of getting sick, insurance companies are quicker to increase the policy price, even though the person is in perfect health. So instead of cheaper insurance policies, the prices will rise. Even when the Teprogrenaian policies stay the same price. Such an individual will have more trouble moving to other worlds in the Union and still get a fair treatment regarding work and insurances.

Regarding target advertisements: when a person has a genetic predisposition of being obese, but he is not. He is still likely to constantly be bothered by advertisement to loose weight, we would not want this to leading to the person to fold and become dangerously underweight.

The main problem with genetics is that they say a lot about a person, but at the same time mostly work with chances. Most people wouldn't like their health issues being laid open on the street. Minor or not.

A person who has a defect gene and cannot reproduce, a she-male, a colour blind, bleeding disorder, the list of genetic diseases goes on and on. We of the Teprogrenaian Consensus are simply not comfortable when all this sensitive data is in the hands of party who we cannot control."

[Nehket Aeka]

"Senator, everyone is constantly bothered by advertistements to lose weight. It's so bad there's even a word for it: spam. But only very unsophisticated advertisement corporations would base their advertisements on genetic material -- there's simply not enough money to be made by advertising slimming diets to non-overweight individuals, even if their genetics say they are inclined to be overweight."

"Regardless, I can understand your concern with regards to advertisements and insurance. Though we seem to not have the advertisement problem in the Commonwealth. Insurance policies are indeed based in part on genetic information, but it is well-known that genetics is only part of a healthy existence. And I don't see how having more expensive insurance for those that are more likely to get sick is bad..."

"Furthermore, hiding your genetic defects is morally reprehensible, so publishing your genetic material is a way of showing that you have moral standards, and would make a good mate. At least, from a veolian perspective."

"Any way, I do not think that we will be able to make much more progress today. I think we covered some valuable ground, but the discussion in the senate makes it clear that a compromise does not seem to be able, with the three of the worlds that are against slavery not even aligned on anything, and without an actual proposal themselves the senate discusion is proving to be a waste of my time.

I suggest we wrap it up here, and meet again of there is a reason to. Do you agree?"

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"Even if it would be morally right to tell your genetic status, a Teprogrenaian would have to say it to their partner or relevant Consults, that does not mean that they have to say it to you.

Anyway, we also believe that most things has been said, especially since the vote has been opened. We agree to meet later if there is a reason to."

And with that, the Senator stands up, leaving Purgatory if Aeka has nothing more to say.

[Nehket Aeka]

Aeka waited until senator Tassar was gone, and decides to move to Purgatory's ladies' lounge to get a drink and relax for a while.

((OOC: And... That's a wrap!))