Power Tool
Mercury
Fedor
Chriz
Gerben
Brend
Stuiter
Elmer
Open in chat • 17 posts (analysis)
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Power Tool
Mercury » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:45 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I have built a Power Tool, which is currently in beta. You can check it out using the link for each system below.
At this time, the power tool does not yet support any power transfers, but otherwise it should cover everything.
Upon scanning through the results, I noticed it appears as if a lot of people have not yet updated their power data, however these could be bugs in my tool.
Moreover, the way power is calculated and especially rounded for population is unclear. Do we always round up to the nearest 0.1? Use traditional rounding? Always round down? Also, do we add racial populations together first for the entire orbit and then calculate power usage? Do we do this per planet? Per race? Per race on a planet? These questions need some clearer answers.
Listed below are my specific findings for each individual system using the beta version of the power tool. If you could check my notes, see if I am correct or if I missed anything, and report this back to me, it would really help me debug and improve the tool so hopefully soon we won't have to manually check power at all any more.
Of course if there are any comments beyond the listed notes those are always very welcome.
Final note: the below comments are not intended as criticism - they are differences between my tool and the current listing on the wiki. Knowing what caused them helps me improve my tool. I am not seeking to correct anyone or cause trouble with their power usage or anything.
Novalia System
You list your population using 32 power. My tool says 33. Could be a rounding error.
Your power usage on orbit 3 is listed as 178, but my tool says its only 168. Could save you a power transfer, potentially.
Your total power produced is listed as 658, my tool says 650. Looks like you're adding power transfers as power produced which might be valid.
Your power consumption is listed as 516, my tool says its only 491, likely due to the above differences plus the power transfer cost.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:novalia_system
Guaire System
Orbit 2 lists 380 power produced. My tool says 530.
Your surplus is listed as 55, my tool says this should be 45.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Guaire_system
Kal System
Your first orbit incorrectly lists 60 power consumed. My tool says this should be 70.
Your second orbit lists 525 as total power produced, my tool says 515. Perhaps an adding mistake?
Third orbit lists 100 power used, my tool says this should be 120.
As a result, my tool gives you a power balance of 200, with 995 production and 795 consumption. You list 1005 production, 765 consumption and 240 surplus power.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:kal_system
Lumo Duo System
Your sixth orbit lists 180 power used. My tool says this should be 190.
Totals are off as a result. My tool suggests you are not 3 in the plus, but have a systemwide shortage of 7 power.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:lumo_duo_system
My'Enru System
Orbit 3 lists population power usage as 23. My tool says 25. Could this be a rounding error?
Orbit 4 lists 17 zones for Erau, my tool says 18. Maybe a new zone was built?
Your page lists 11 power for population on Erau, my tool says 12 due to 0.1 humans. Total power usage in the orbit does appear to add the human population, though it is listed as 182 and, my tool says 202. Could be partially due to rounding.
Orbit 7 is listed as using uses 20 power, my tool says this should be 30. Maybe an extra zone was built?
Total power consumption is listed as 405 with a surplus of 295, my tool says 437, with a surplus of 263.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:My_Enru_system
Parumecaetes System
Orbit 3 lists 60 power used. My tool says 70. Perhaps a zone was built?
Orbit 4 lists 35 power for the combined 3.06 population and 0.5 population. My tool lists 39 power. This could be a rounding error.
The Cradle is listed as using 10 power, but my tool says 20. Could a new zone have been built?
As a result of those differences, my total power consumption is listed as 249.
Orbit 9 lists 10 power used. My tool lists 20. Could you be missing the zone on Parapliteus?
My tool lists 479 power used and a 191 surplus, you list 445 power used and a 225 surplus, fully explained by above differences.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Parumecaetes_system
ShasKar System
Orbit 1 lists 30 power used. My tool says 40. Perhaps a zone was built?
Orbit 4 lists 230 power used. My tool says 240. Perhaps a zone was built here as well?
Orbit 5 lists 284 power used. My tool says 286.. Perhaps a rounding issue with the Mudry, or has there been population growth?
Orbit 6 lists 70 power used, my tool says 100. Perhaps some zones were built or a world was missed?
No totals listed, so didn't check that.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:ShasKar_system
Smi-Halek System
Orbit 1 lists 436 power used. My tool says 438. Perhaps rounding on population is different?
Orbit 3+4 lists 70 power used. My tool says 80 and lists an extra zone on Kelwar
As a result of the above differences, total power used is 778 in my tool, not the listed 766 and balance is (thus) given as +22, not the listed +34.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Smi-Halek_system
Thank you all for taking the trouble of looking at this!
At this time, the power tool does not yet support any power transfers, but otherwise it should cover everything.
Upon scanning through the results, I noticed it appears as if a lot of people have not yet updated their power data, however these could be bugs in my tool.
Moreover, the way power is calculated and especially rounded for population is unclear. Do we always round up to the nearest 0.1? Use traditional rounding? Always round down? Also, do we add racial populations together first for the entire orbit and then calculate power usage? Do we do this per planet? Per race? Per race on a planet? These questions need some clearer answers.
Listed below are my specific findings for each individual system using the beta version of the power tool. If you could check my notes, see if I am correct or if I missed anything, and report this back to me, it would really help me debug and improve the tool so hopefully soon we won't have to manually check power at all any more.
Of course if there are any comments beyond the listed notes those are always very welcome.
Final note: the below comments are not intended as criticism - they are differences between my tool and the current listing on the wiki. Knowing what caused them helps me improve my tool. I am not seeking to correct anyone or cause trouble with their power usage or anything.
Novalia System
You list your population using 32 power. My tool says 33. Could be a rounding error.
Your power usage on orbit 3 is listed as 178, but my tool says its only 168. Could save you a power transfer, potentially.
Your total power produced is listed as 658, my tool says 650. Looks like you're adding power transfers as power produced which might be valid.
Your power consumption is listed as 516, my tool says its only 491, likely due to the above differences plus the power transfer cost.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:novalia_system
Guaire System
Orbit 2 lists 380 power produced. My tool says 530.
Your surplus is listed as 55, my tool says this should be 45.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Guaire_system
Kal System
Your first orbit incorrectly lists 60 power consumed. My tool says this should be 70.
Your second orbit lists 525 as total power produced, my tool says 515. Perhaps an adding mistake?
Third orbit lists 100 power used, my tool says this should be 120.
As a result, my tool gives you a power balance of 200, with 995 production and 795 consumption. You list 1005 production, 765 consumption and 240 surplus power.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:kal_system
Lumo Duo System
Your sixth orbit lists 180 power used. My tool says this should be 190.
Totals are off as a result. My tool suggests you are not 3 in the plus, but have a systemwide shortage of 7 power.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:lumo_duo_system
My'Enru System
Orbit 3 lists population power usage as 23. My tool says 25. Could this be a rounding error?
Orbit 4 lists 17 zones for Erau, my tool says 18. Maybe a new zone was built?
Your page lists 11 power for population on Erau, my tool says 12 due to 0.1 humans. Total power usage in the orbit does appear to add the human population, though it is listed as 182 and, my tool says 202. Could be partially due to rounding.
Orbit 7 is listed as using uses 20 power, my tool says this should be 30. Maybe an extra zone was built?
Total power consumption is listed as 405 with a surplus of 295, my tool says 437, with a surplus of 263.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:My_Enru_system
Parumecaetes System
Orbit 3 lists 60 power used. My tool says 70. Perhaps a zone was built?
Orbit 4 lists 35 power for the combined 3.06 population and 0.5 population. My tool lists 39 power. This could be a rounding error.
The Cradle is listed as using 10 power, but my tool says 20. Could a new zone have been built?
As a result of those differences, my total power consumption is listed as 249.
Orbit 9 lists 10 power used. My tool lists 20. Could you be missing the zone on Parapliteus?
My tool lists 479 power used and a 191 surplus, you list 445 power used and a 225 surplus, fully explained by above differences.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Parumecaetes_system
ShasKar System
Orbit 1 lists 30 power used. My tool says 40. Perhaps a zone was built?
Orbit 4 lists 230 power used. My tool says 240. Perhaps a zone was built here as well?
Orbit 5 lists 284 power used. My tool says 286.. Perhaps a rounding issue with the Mudry, or has there been population growth?
Orbit 6 lists 70 power used, my tool says 100. Perhaps some zones were built or a world was missed?
No totals listed, so didn't check that.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:ShasKar_system
Smi-Halek System
Orbit 1 lists 436 power used. My tool says 438. Perhaps rounding on population is different?
Orbit 3+4 lists 70 power used. My tool says 80 and lists an extra zone on Kelwar
As a result of the above differences, total power used is 778 in my tool, not the listed 766 and balance is (thus) given as +22, not the listed +34.
http://www.fwurg.net/tools/power/index.php?system=ic:Smi-Halek_system
Thank you all for taking the trouble of looking at this!
Fedor » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:56 pm
Thank you for making this tool.
It was right on every account for my system, and I have adjusted accordingly.
It was right on every account for my system, and I have adjusted accordingly.
Chriz » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:58 pm
Aw that one zone... So close!
Since you are not doing anything with power transfers yet, the totals don't say much for normal systems. For cheap transfers you do need the Lagrange Point Conduit Stations technology of course.
Since normal systems transfer power at the cost of 1
/ 1 transfered, a lot of power is lost there.
The rest seems to work for my system I guess.
Since you are not doing anything with power transfers yet, the totals don't say much for normal systems. For cheap transfers you do need the Lagrange Point Conduit Stations technology of course.
Since normal systems transfer power at the cost of 1
/ 1 transfered, a lot of power is lost there. The rest seems to work for my system I guess.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Gerben » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:07 pm
Very cool Mercury, thanks. Your numbers are indeed correct, i''m just a bit behind with updates on my table xD. Besides that.. 740-695 == 55 is obviously wrong :P
Brend » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:18 pm
*ashamed*
You're right; I forgot to update my power after construction of the zone, fixed it. T_T
On the population thing: the rules don't specify any rounding, and as population always works inly for whole units, I was rounding everything down to 0.1's, you seem to round 17.69
up to 17.7 , while I round it down to 17.6 .
In fact, you seem to round multiple times (once for each population segment), while I first add all population, and then determine the amount of power needed... (Your method costs more power, as you round up multiple times).
Notes:
Since there isn't any clear-cut ruling right now, I would suggest following the population counting we use for Racial Characterisics: round per segment, but round down to 0.1s. How do you people feel about that?
The tool seems unaware of power transfers? If so, some systems might be completely out of whack -- or is that me looking at the wrong data?
Once the tool is out of Beta, I'll add it to the system template so we get automatic links ^_^
You're right; I forgot to update my power after construction of the zone, fixed it. T_T
On the population thing: the rules don't specify any rounding, and as population always works inly for whole units, I was rounding everything down to 0.1's, you seem to round 17.69
up to 17.7 , while I round it down to 17.6 .In fact, you seem to round multiple times (once for each population segment), while I first add all population, and then determine the amount of power needed... (Your method costs more power, as you round up multiple times).
Notes:
Since there isn't any clear-cut ruling right now, I would suggest following the population counting we use for Racial Characterisics: round per segment, but round down to 0.1s. How do you people feel about that?
The tool seems unaware of power transfers? If so, some systems might be completely out of whack -- or is that me looking at the wrong data?
Once the tool is out of Beta, I'll add it to the system template so we get automatic links ^_^
Mercury » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:48 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I do not currently do anything regarding power transfers, which is obviously the key missing feature ^_^ I wanted to share what I had regardless since I need to think some more on how I will handle power transfers before I get to work on it. I believe it may be possible to do it fully automatically without a need for player action, which I would find much preferable to a manual system.
My current rounding scheme is to always round up fractions to the next 0.1 and to do this for every population group, per planet. This is the most expensive method of rounding and the one I use for the IO Protocol (for which it is relatively simple and cheap regardless). Seeing that others do it differently, I realised there was no clear rule on this.
Once we decide how rounding will be done, I will adjust the tool. Since this problem also applied to population before in a different discussion (which I cannot find right now), perhaps we need a general rule for this to help simplify things.
I have no opposition to Brends suggestion, though I might build a special case exception for the IO Protocol to remain rounded up since it is just too fitting that my homeworld will use 486 ^_^
My current rounding scheme is to always round up fractions to the next 0.1 and to do this for every population group, per planet. This is the most expensive method of rounding and the one I use for the IO Protocol (for which it is relatively simple and cheap regardless). Seeing that others do it differently, I realised there was no clear rule on this.
Once we decide how rounding will be done, I will adjust the tool. Since this problem also applied to population before in a different discussion (which I cannot find right now), perhaps we need a general rule for this to help simplify things.
I have no opposition to Brends suggestion, though I might build a special case exception for the IO Protocol to remain rounded up since it is just too fitting that my homeworld will use 486
^_^
Stuiter » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:43 pm
I indeed have not updated all the zone yet, which I have done now.
Your power tools always goes for the next full number with calculating the power needed for population.
On Hio are 2.42 Hiocans and I rounded to 24 but the power tool to 25.
Your power tools always goes for the next full number with calculating the power needed for population.
On Hio are 2.42 Hiocans and I rounded to 24 but the power tool to 25.
Elmer » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:59 pm
I am a bit sloppy with writing my power down correctly because I have enough of it anyway. (I know, its a bad habit, but so much easier.)
The difference in power use from the population is indeed a rounding issue. But even with your system I come out differently:
populations:
1.62 Danar on Dhiahamara
1.62 Fecta on Dhiahamara
0.2 Danar on the Cradle
0.3 Fecta on the Cradle
first adding, then rounding: 3.24 on Dhiahamara = 32 power
0.5 on the Cradle = 5 power = 37 power
first rounding, then adding: 1.6 + 1.6 = 3.2 power on Dhiahamara
The cradle stays the same
So I don't reach the 39 power at all. Or does Mercury round up everything? Then it will be:
1.62 + 1.62 will become 1.7 + 1.7 = 3.4
3.4+0.5 from the Cradle = 3.9 = 39 power.
The difference in power use from the population is indeed a rounding issue. But even with your system I come out differently:
populations:
1.62 Danar on Dhiahamara
1.62 Fecta on Dhiahamara
0.2 Danar on the Cradle
0.3 Fecta on the Cradle
first adding, then rounding: 3.24 on Dhiahamara = 32 power
0.5 on the Cradle = 5 power = 37 power
first rounding, then adding: 1.6 + 1.6 = 3.2 power on Dhiahamara
The cradle stays the same
So I don't reach the 39 power at all. Or does Mercury round up everything? Then it will be:
1.62 + 1.62 will become 1.7 + 1.7 = 3.4
3.4+0.5 from the Cradle = 3.9 = 39 power.
Mercury » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:06 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I want to add the option to add the class "brownout" to a zone (similar to how we have "developed" zones).
This allows you to designate a specific zone as being without power which the power tool can detect so it can ignore those zones and validate your system even when a specific zone is not legal.
My question (primarily to Brend) is, can this be done without issue (I know I can add the class, does it break anything?)
This allows you to designate a specific zone as being without power which the power tool can detect so it can ignore those zones and validate your system even when a specific zone is not legal.
My question (primarily to Brend) is, can this be done without issue (I know I can add the class, does it break anything?)
Brend » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:23 pm
Well. It wouldn't break anything. But actually the distinct
So, I would suggest adding a field to the zones that are browned out, or adding a power_directive just like we have the economic_directive.
I think that adding a
developed class is an error I made long ago... It should have been developed_zone, but some tools rely on this weirdness and its a bit fragile :SSo, I would suggest adding a field to the zones that are browned out, or adding a power_directive just like we have the economic_directive.
I think that adding a
Status: brownout field to the affected zones would be the best solution for now. We can always change it later, since it isn't a structural effect on a lot of zones ^_^
Mercury » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:27 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
This works for me, so long as it is clear and I can find it based on the zone without additional queries. I will implement my new version of the Power Tool based on this idea.
Mercury » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:24 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I have uploaded a new version of the Power Tool. I now round down individual population groups and only then add them up for the orbit.
New features:
Please take the last point into account when planning for future zones and their power requirements.
The tool is now out of beta and has been officially released. If you find a bug or incorrect value, please let me know as this should not exist.
New features:
- displays a Lagrange Point Conduit Station icon for systems with the Lagrange Point Stations special project
- Correctly recognises zones that have been deliberately browned out as not using any power
- Displays a list of all browned out zones and their details, if and only if such zones exist (see hub system as an example)
- Tool now correctly handles subsequent orbit background colours in tables for systems with non-heavy large planets
- Added columns for power transfer (power received from another orbit is not 'produced', so had to list it seperately)
- Listed total amount of power transferred within system for easy reference
- Tool automatically distributes power over the system
- Correctly list non-heavy large planet orbit title as 2+3 instead of 2 for example in power transfers
- Alerts user if system has insufficient power to make a distribution with big red markings (see example: hub system)
- Added warning note regarding surplus for non-Lagrange Point Conduit Station systems
- Population is now rounded down per segment as suggested by Brend, then added, except for the IO, who are rounded up, because it produces cool numbers
- For all systems, if there exists a valid method to distribute the power over the system without brownouts, it finds a valid solution.
- For all systems with Lagrange Point Conduit Stations, it guarantees that this is the most optimum solution (potentially one of several)
- For systems without Lagrange Point Conduit Stations, it DOES NOT guarantee the solution found is the one that uses the least amount of power, merely that -a- solution will always be found if it exists
Please take the last point into account when planning for future zones and their power requirements.
The tool is now out of beta and has been officially released. If you find a bug or incorrect value, please let me know as this should not exist.
Mercury » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:38 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I added a direct link for this to the system template. If your power is correctly listed by the power tool, you may remove your power entry from the main system page.
Brend » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:39 pm
I love the direct link.
I loathe the warning color -- it burns my eyes and hurts my nose!
I loathe the warning color -- it burns my eyes and hurts my nose!
Chriz » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:15 am
Could you add the power zone on the sun to the power tool. (The sun is not recognized yet)
This is the zone from Solar Wind Generator Array.
Furthermore the recycling upgrade lowers the power consumption of the zone with 5. Can you add the special case for these zones as well.
I am talking about the Waste Material Post-processing Plant upgrade here.
This is the zone from Solar Wind Generator Array.
Furthermore the recycling upgrade lowers the power consumption of the zone with 5
. Can you add the special case for these zones as well.I am talking about the Waste Material Post-processing Plant upgrade here.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Brend » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:21 pm
I have had a look at the power tool to see if I could implement the issues mentioned above by Chriz, and also to see if I can add in the space elevator and Orbital Processing Cluster consumption rules.
Unfortunately, I have not yet found a quick method of doing so, so I'll be postponing this indefinitely.
Unfortunately, I have not yet found a quick method of doing so, so I'll be postponing this indefinitely.
17 posts (analysis)
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