Note on Credits and Cyborg/Space Suits
Brend
Dragonmaster352
Elmer
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Note on Credits and Cyborg/Space Suits
Brend » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:40 pm
As per dragonmaster352's request, I moved this post out of an OOC-only post in [9 -8] Looking for a Jedi (part 2) to an OOC topic. I have editted it a little bit to provide the necessary context.
This post is written in reply to an ST post informing the two non-cyborg players in the mission that they had to hand in their space suits with visors and such, and with the OOC note that cash credits are not assumed to be available.
On credits: Physical credits are a well-established form of currency in the star wars settings; the Star Wars settings is more primitive than the going-ons in the Union proper. In fact, you can probably not pay with any form of digital currency outside the Union. To say nothing of Union worlds that use physical currency out of tradition or convenience... I do not think it unreasonable to assume a small amount of credits as part of clothing and stuff. I list them explicitly because Ajava usually travels with a larger amount of available cash.
On the suit I can only add that Trigiel is allowed to keep all kinds of nice vision gadgets. I understand that he has the Cyborg racial characteristic, and I do not want to deprive him of the coolness of this. I merely wish to observe, and communicate to both ST and the other players, that Cyborg gives "The Jedi does not require an environment suit to survive in otherwise dangerous environments." and not all the other cool tech. I don't want to get into a "what is a cyborg" debate, but I feel that it is a tad biased to allow cyborgs to carry that tech around with impunity and deny other players the same toys -- though I understand that from an IC perspective this is very reasonable; Ajava doesn't have to hand in her healing factor either ^_^
Of course, both things are at the storytellers' discretion; though especially the credits thing is relevant since it sometimes seems that there is a high amount of 'technology bleedthrough' into the universe.
This post is written in reply to an ST post informing the two non-cyborg players in the mission that they had to hand in their space suits with visors and such, and with the OOC note that cash credits are not assumed to be available.
Dragonmaster352 wrote:((OOC: As a storyteller I will not force you to leave things behind if you're going to need them. While regular clothing and robes are assumed to be taken CASH credits are not. (at least not by me) I do assume you take a debit/credit card or whatever digital payment method is used by your world. Other then that, since Ajava stated she brought multiple sets, I assumed she took multiple sets of jedi robes and clothing, like you would for spending several days somewhere.))
On credits: Physical credits are a well-established form of currency in the star wars settings; the Star Wars settings is more primitive than the going-ons in the Union proper. In fact, you can probably not pay with any form of digital currency outside the Union. To say nothing of Union worlds that use physical currency out of tradition or convenience... I do not think it unreasonable to assume a small amount of credits as part of clothing and stuff. I list them explicitly because Ajava usually travels with a larger amount of available cash.
On the suit I can only add that Trigiel is allowed to keep all kinds of nice vision gadgets. I understand that he has the Cyborg racial characteristic, and I do not want to deprive him of the coolness of this. I merely wish to observe, and communicate to both ST and the other players, that Cyborg gives "The Jedi does not require an environment suit to survive in otherwise dangerous environments." and not all the other cool tech. I don't want to get into a "what is a cyborg" debate, but I feel that it is a tad biased to allow cyborgs to carry that tech around with impunity and deny other players the same toys -- though I understand that from an IC perspective this is very reasonable; Ajava doesn't have to hand in her healing factor either ^_^
Of course, both things are at the storytellers' discretion; though especially the credits thing is relevant since it sometimes seems that there is a high amount of 'technology bleedthrough' into the universe.
Brend » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:48 pm
I have marked this thread as open, in the hopes of getting some replies, instead of having everybody just read this and continue on their merry way. I think both points are rather impactful for all Jedi missions, since we have about 50/50 cyborg and non-cyborg players.
The above is the original post. This here is my further reasoning:
I think that cash credits should be the default form of payment, not some fancy-smancy digital payment card. Even though I understand that players of high-tech worlds like the ACA or the Hiocans feel that their payment system is superior, it should not be the default for the setting.
Furthermore, the Cyborg racial characteristic should not give players the leeway to take all kinds of cool and fancy gadgets while their non-cyborg companions are stripped of all equipment. They should be allowed to operate on the same technological playing field. An earlier comment on Cyborgs was already made by Mercury to clarifiy the technology level of the setting with regards to cyborgs; He states:
Because of the fact that the capabilities of a cyborg should be roughly the same as those of a non-cyborg with the right gear, I find it a bit unfair that the non-cyborgs have to hand in basically all their gear, while the cyborg-player gets to keep not only their rightful space-suit-equivalent, but also all the other neat gadgets that they claim as 'built-in'...
The above is the original post. This here is my further reasoning:
I think that cash credits should be the default form of payment, not some fancy-smancy digital payment card. Even though I understand that players of high-tech worlds like the ACA or the Hiocans feel that their payment system is superior, it should not be the default for the setting.
Furthermore, the Cyborg racial characteristic should not give players the leeway to take all kinds of cool and fancy gadgets while their non-cyborg companions are stripped of all equipment. They should be allowed to operate on the same technological playing field. An earlier comment on Cyborgs was already made by Mercury to clarifiy the technology level of the setting with regards to cyborgs; He states:
Mercury wrote:All in all, someone with a regular piece of technology will be equivalent in ability to a cyborg. The power of the cyborg lies in that the technology is part of their body rather than a loose device.
Because of the fact that the capabilities of a cyborg should be roughly the same as those of a non-cyborg with the right gear, I find it a bit unfair that the non-cyborgs have to hand in basically all their gear, while the cyborg-player gets to keep not only their rightful space-suit-equivalent, but also all the other neat gadgets that they claim as 'built-in'...
Dragonmaster352 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:24 pm
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Dragonmaster352 - Storyteller
I can understand your point. Now let me give you my view on the matter.
As a storyteller I can't exactly tell a player: "go switch out your eyes." Nor can I from an IC point.
I just tried to be a helpful storyteller by saying "you don't need this heavy bulky stuff, leave it" And then I get the whole 'cyborgs are unfair' thing all over again. Ajava and Ariana packed as if they where going to fight a war in Siberia during the winter. Had they taken small/light things I would have said ok. I approved Trigiel straight away because he didn't bring large and heavy stuff like that. Not because he is a cyborg.
Also I'm getting a bit tired of constantly having to defend myself both as a player and a storyteller. I don't know about Elmer, but I have a certain view of cyborgs and I worked that into my world and characters. I try to make a realistic cyborg race and then it gets constantly hammered as being unfair or unbalanced or whatever your problem with cyborgs is.
On credits, I know nothing of starwars being established as a cash only universe. The creditcard was well established by the time A New Hope came out, so I don't even understand why you would think that.
As a storyteller I can't exactly tell a player: "go switch out your eyes." Nor can I from an IC point.
I just tried to be a helpful storyteller by saying "you don't need this heavy bulky stuff, leave it" And then I get the whole 'cyborgs are unfair' thing all over again. Ajava and Ariana packed as if they where going to fight a war in Siberia during the winter. Had they taken small/light things I would have said ok. I approved Trigiel straight away because he didn't bring large and heavy stuff like that. Not because he is a cyborg.
Also I'm getting a bit tired of constantly having to defend myself both as a player and a storyteller. I don't know about Elmer, but I have a certain view of cyborgs and I worked that into my world and characters. I try to make a realistic cyborg race and then it gets constantly hammered as being unfair or unbalanced or whatever your problem with cyborgs is.
On credits, I know nothing of starwars being established as a cash only universe. The creditcard was well established by the time A New Hope came out, so I don't even understand why you would think that.
Dragonmaster352 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:26 pm
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Dragonmaster352 - Storyteller
Sorry went on an angry rant there a bit.
Still it does represent my honest feelings in this case.
Still it does represent my honest feelings in this case.
Brend » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:04 am
I think I failed to properly communicate my point here. I'll try to explain it from a different angle.
I never claimed that Star Wars is a cash only universe... In fact, I think that there are a lot of forms of digital payment. Especially within nice and organized networks of worlds like the Union. Having a credit card and not carrying around a bag of coins is very nice, and with biometric authorization you can even prevent pick-pockets from using your hard-earned money.
My point was: digital payments like creditcards require a lot of infrastructure and trust. Both of these are mostly available inside the Union. Outside of the Union, it is probably not possible to pay with a Union-backed credit card due to two reasons: The large amount of data transfer, and the fact that there must be trust in the system used.
The large amount of data transfer has been established as 'only possible with holonet backbone', which clearly is not available outside of the Union. So, any digital bank transfer would literrally take weeks as the data crystal is shipped to the Union, where the transfer will be approved, and the data crystal is shipped back to the planet where the purchase was made. On top of that, the local store owner, cantina boss or arms dealer must actually trust that they will get their payment weeks later, when the buyer is already long gone with their valuable stuff.
All these problems go away of you have a stack of cash at hand. The cash has implicit value due to the valuable metals in them, and both the buyer and the seller can immediately see that the transaction worked: The coins changed hands.
Of course, there is also the possibility of using a cryptocurrency that is actually stored on a chip you take with you on a card. But this would imply some form of trust in the cryptocurrency, while the coins have an inherent value to them as long as the metals used are rare.
So, it makes sense for Jedi to take some cash with them on out-of-Union missions; which is a lot of them.
(I have perused Galactic Credit Standard as one of the sources I base this opinion on; next to my own insights into real-world economics.)
Dragonmaster352 wrote:On credits, I know nothing of starwars being established as a cash only universe. The creditcard was well established by the time A New Hope came out, so I don't even understand why you would think that.
I never claimed that Star Wars is a cash only universe... In fact, I think that there are a lot of forms of digital payment. Especially within nice and organized networks of worlds like the Union. Having a credit card and not carrying around a bag of coins is very nice, and with biometric authorization you can even prevent pick-pockets from using your hard-earned money.
My point was: digital payments like creditcards require a lot of infrastructure and trust. Both of these are mostly available inside the Union. Outside of the Union, it is probably not possible to pay with a Union-backed credit card due to two reasons: The large amount of data transfer, and the fact that there must be trust in the system used.
The large amount of data transfer has been established as 'only possible with holonet backbone', which clearly is not available outside of the Union. So, any digital bank transfer would literrally take weeks as the data crystal is shipped to the Union, where the transfer will be approved, and the data crystal is shipped back to the planet where the purchase was made. On top of that, the local store owner, cantina boss or arms dealer must actually trust that they will get their payment weeks later, when the buyer is already long gone with their valuable stuff.
All these problems go away of you have a stack of cash at hand. The cash has implicit value due to the valuable metals in them, and both the buyer and the seller can immediately see that the transaction worked: The coins changed hands.
Of course, there is also the possibility of using a cryptocurrency that is actually stored on a chip you take with you on a card. But this would imply some form of trust in the cryptocurrency, while the coins have an inherent value to them as long as the metals used are rare.
So, it makes sense for Jedi to take some cash with them on out-of-Union missions; which is a lot of them.
(I have perused Galactic Credit Standard as one of the sources I base this opinion on; next to my own insights into real-world economics.)
Brend » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:42 am
I now see how I failed to explain my point about the allowed gear. It has to do with context. And there's two separate issues at hand.
The first is a perceived mismatch between IC and OOC events. The second is a perceived (note the word 'perceived', not 'actual') mismatch between allowed gear.
The first issues boils down to this:
It would have helped if we had the information on the planet before you asked us to list our equipment. I can't read your mind, and I couldn't have known that the planet was nice and tidy. So, we list what we think is a nice all-round set of gear to allow us to take on whatever kind of challenge Master Leithor sets us on ^_^
We get miffed here because this is what we experience:
This makes us very wary about what's going on, to the point of checking everything to make sure our characters are not somehow attributed further IC mistakes because of our OOC inability to know something.
The second thing is the perceived mismatch of gear. Both between players, and (now that I think about it) probably also between how I envision the Onyx Series 5 and how you envision it. The accidental symptom of this is that I said something about the Cyborg racial, while it really is about bringing gear with you.
For this issue there is a big difference between being a player or a storyteller. On the one hand, as a player you can think up cool new things, and use them in your world. We have had some discussion on this, though I think it is mostly hashed out by Mercury's statement on Cyborgs.
On the other hand, as a storyteller, you create certain expectations with the things you declare. It is more tricky to just take your player view on something and apply it continuously as the world is a big place, and not everything is like your world; this extends not only to Cyborg but to other racial characteristics as well. Take Telepathic as an example: it works very differently from the Hemet Veolian for the Azarya and the Troig.
The thing is, we can not really see the difference. There was no explicit "Don't bring bulky stuff". What we see is that Trigiel uses his cyborg quality as a coat rack on which to hang all kinds of cool gear. That gear is actually very awesome! Things like a grappling hook, and infra-red vision and night sight. As a player I think that this is a good use of the characteristic.
Then, our bringing of a space suit with some extra gear is basically us making up for the lack of being a cyborg by taking a space suit, pimping it up with some nice infra-red vision and night sight; to make sure we can actually go with him on a missions, instead of waiting in the space shuttle while he is making cool moves in dangerous environments.
In general I think that other players should be allowed to bring the same gear if they want. I would have exactly the same opinion if Ajava was in a missions, and someone else got their communications link denied. I have the Telepathic characteristic, and feel that this should allow other players to bring a technological equivalent. Or not, but that should be their choice.
This isn't about cyborgs. This is about players having a somewhat level playing field.
I completely agree. It would not make sense to ask this. So, why not allow the other players to upgrade their eyes as well, by taking a helmet with night-sight visor with them?
Then, there is a perceived mismatch about what counts as bulky and what not. I, for example, do not really envision the Onyx Series 5 as a bulky armour. It is a very sleek and form-fitting design, not much more than what Ajava normally wears, really.
The first is a perceived mismatch between IC and OOC events. The second is a perceived (note the word 'perceived', not 'actual') mismatch between allowed gear.
The first issues boils down to this:
Dragonmaster352 wrote:Ajava and Ariana packed as if they where going to fight a war in Siberia during the winter. Had they taken small/light things I would have said ok.
It would have helped if we had the information on the planet before you asked us to list our equipment. I can't read your mind, and I couldn't have known that the planet was nice and tidy. So, we list what we think is a nice all-round set of gear to allow us to take on whatever kind of challenge Master Leithor sets us on ^_^
We get miffed here because this is what we experience:
- OOC ST: "Tell me what you're gonna bring"
- OOC Player: "I don't know what's gonna happen. I bring all this stuff!"
- IC NPC 1: "This is the planet you're going to"
- IC NPC 2: "You're bringing too much stuff. That's bad! Don't do that!"
- OOC Player: "Wat what?! I didn't know. I haven't even adjusted my stuff yet."
This makes us very wary about what's going on, to the point of checking everything to make sure our characters are not somehow attributed further IC mistakes because of our OOC inability to know something.
The second thing is the perceived mismatch of gear. Both between players, and (now that I think about it) probably also between how I envision the Onyx Series 5 and how you envision it. The accidental symptom of this is that I said something about the Cyborg racial, while it really is about bringing gear with you.
Dragonmaster352 wrote:Also I'm getting a bit tired of constantly having to defend myself both as a player and a storyteller. I don't know about Elmer, but I have a certain view of cyborgs and I worked that into my world and characters. I try to make a realistic cyborg race and then it gets constantly hammered as being unfair or unbalanced or whatever your problem with cyborgs is.
For this issue there is a big difference between being a player or a storyteller. On the one hand, as a player you can think up cool new things, and use them in your world. We have had some discussion on this, though I think it is mostly hashed out by Mercury's statement on Cyborgs.
On the other hand, as a storyteller, you create certain expectations with the things you declare. It is more tricky to just take your player view on something and apply it continuously as the world is a big place, and not everything is like your world; this extends not only to Cyborg but to other racial characteristics as well. Take Telepathic as an example: it works very differently from the Hemet Veolian for the Azarya and the Troig.
Dragonmaster352 wrote:I approved Trigiel straight away because he didn't bring large and heavy stuff like that. Not because he is a cyborg.
The thing is, we can not really see the difference. There was no explicit "Don't bring bulky stuff". What we see is that Trigiel uses his cyborg quality as a coat rack on which to hang all kinds of cool gear. That gear is actually very awesome! Things like a grappling hook, and infra-red vision and night sight. As a player I think that this is a good use of the characteristic.
Then, our bringing of a space suit with some extra gear is basically us making up for the lack of being a cyborg by taking a space suit, pimping it up with some nice infra-red vision and night sight; to make sure we can actually go with him on a missions, instead of waiting in the space shuttle while he is making cool moves in dangerous environments.
In general I think that other players should be allowed to bring the same gear if they want. I would have exactly the same opinion if Ajava was in a missions, and someone else got their communications link denied. I have the Telepathic characteristic, and feel that this should allow other players to bring a technological equivalent. Or not, but that should be their choice.
This isn't about cyborgs. This is about players having a somewhat level playing field.
Dragonmaster352 wrote:As a storyteller I can't exactly tell a player: "go switch out your eyes." Nor can I from an IC point.
I completely agree. It would not make sense to ask this. So, why not allow the other players to upgrade their eyes as well, by taking a helmet with night-sight visor with them?
Then, there is a perceived mismatch about what counts as bulky and what not. I, for example, do not really envision the Onyx Series 5 as a bulky armour. It is a very sleek and form-fitting design, not much more than what Ajava normally wears, really.
Elmer » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:19 pm
cyborgs
I think as well that it would be unfair and even hypocrite to allow cyborgs all their fancy implants, but to strip biological characters from their gadgets. In fact, most of these kind of gadgets are a lot smaller and easier to handle when used in gadget form than in implant form: aqua breathers are basically small enough to hide behind your belt, binoculars for jedi also available in pocket size. While for cyborgs most of the time (especially my case) those equipments are giant pieces metal the size of a head or chest. The main issue here is that one player is allowed to keep is gear, while the other player gets his gear denied, with as only visible reason for the players that the cyborg is allowed to keep everything with him.Although I must say that if a storyteller/jedi master denies Trigiel his optic sensors, Trigiel would immediately back of from the mission, since he has no intentions in beheading himself and going in on his auxiliary eyes. But that means if another jedi tags along and takes a set of binoculars with him (or a helmet) it is only reasonable the other jedi is allowed to bring the gadget, especially since it isn't a game braking super expensive superweapon which will solve/dissolve the mission in 1 blow.
Space travel equipment
Space is big. Space is dangerous. When you go on a space trip, it is only sensible to bring along a basic survival kit and a space suit. After all, if you experience troubles, you have to go in space to fix your ship. Dying of the cold because of a loose wire in mid space is just a very sad ending for epic Jedi. Also, this is Star Wars, not Stargate. If something breaks in your ship, you don't go to the engine room to change a few crystals to fix the whole ship. You have to go outside to climb on top of your hull and switch a power-coupling to fix your whole ship. In normal life, if you make a long road trip by car, you bring along stuff like basic repair tools, cooling liquid, a flashy triangle, food and a blanket and stuff. A space trip isn't all that different, only a bit more fancy. So when Jedi hear that they have to go to a planet, it is logical they bring along basic survival kits in order to die an heroic death on the planet after an epic long cat-and-mouse chase in the jungle for weeks, not a stupid one in space.
Money
I think Brend made the point of credits quite clear. Merchants want guarantees that they are being paid for their stuff, in fact, everybody wants guarantees. Digital money can be very difficult to trust, while cash is simple, clear and easy to understand. And once again, it is only sensible for jedi to bring along some cash during their trips. The order is incredibly rich, Jedi not coming home because they have no money is just plain stupid.Master: "Why are you 4 months late"
Knight: "I had to hitch-hike my way home since I had no money for a space-taxi"
Master: "You could have sent a message"
Knight: "The holo-phonebooth only accepted cash."
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