Fwurg

[Dragonmaster352]

I have recently come with a few new ideas for my Astrians, which I think are cool but might conflict with the Star Wars setting we have here. So I thought to run it by people who are more knowledgeable about Star Wars then me and possibly get some feedback and tips. Please note not all issues are necessarily related to the setting.

Now as some of you have undoubtedly noticed I have worked a few transhumanist ideas into the Astrians already. Some (mostly the earliest) by coincident others on purpose. Though I suppose it could be called transastrianism instead of transhumanism in this case. (Apparently transhumanism isn't recognised by my browsers spellchecker :P) I would like to continue the inclusion of transastrianism into the astrians.

During the last writ-a-ton a suggestion was made to me that I might develop a technology leading to something similar to the Virtual racial characteristic. Now I like this idea. But I think it could be even more cool if these virtual people could interface with non-virtual astrians in a symbiotic relationship.

Now an idea I came with during the last writ-a-ton was to replace the biological brain of the Astrians with a technological equivalent. One of the main issues raised at that was the need for biology to use the Force. Now I have considered this issue seriously, and I have concluded that I am not necessarily against giving up the Force. My two main reasons are this: First I think it would be something that the Astrians would do. Second, it can (and probably would) lead to some very interesting roleplay. After all if they aren't connected to the Force the Union laws consider the Astrians not to be alive. I would still like my population to be able to grow, and I have some ideas how that would work in fluff.

That being said I would like to avoid the feeling of having everyone against me I had when I pulled my coup d'état. So I would like to hear opinions of people or how some may or may not react to this.

[Brend]

This sounds like an extremely interesting direction of research. Before I can reply, could you elaborate on how you would see this working?

Do you plan on having a mass exodus from the physical world to the a virtual world? Do you envision brains being "backed up" as a precaution against dying with the backup being activated virtually when the individual dies, or is it the conversion one-time thing where an individual enters a 'conversion booth' and is translated from physical to virtual? What kinds of capabilities do you plan on ascribing virtualized Astrians?

On what time scale do you envision for this process, and what kinds of technolgical milestones do you think your world would need to reach before being able to virtualize beings?


On a side note: I think you should not confuse the opinion of IC entities with players, most of the coup de'état friction came from IC sources that were suddenly confronted with a changed situation -- and no one in power (read: politicians) like change. This case might be partly the same, the opinion the Veolians have of the Astrians will reach an all-time low when you actively start subverting the veolian idea of the "natural order" by consciously stepping outside of the cycle of evolution.

(That being said, I know how it feels to have everyone against you regardless of IC/OOC separations... I get to experience it as a prolonged feeling due to the whole anti-slavery thing... For me it sometimes also difficult not to feel as if everyone is against 'me', even though you are really against the Veolians.)

[Dragonmaster352]

Haven't really thought about how the transfer would take place. Good point, need to think about that.

As for a time scale. Well this will obviously take time, not just to make the technology available but also to implement it onto/into the Astrian population. I wouldn't rule out 30-50 time periods for the entire IC process. Perhaps even longer.

Technological milestones needed would probably include:

• Understanding the Astrian brain to a point it can be replicated. This would be one of the smaller ones, in my opinion, as the established cybernetics technology the Astrians have already requires a fairly good understanding of that brain.
• The hardware technology that is required to run the Astrian consciousness. Note: Star Wars Technology may have this covered already. I'm not sure.
• The technology required to transfer the consciousness from biological to electronic.
• Knowing the basic "programming" (for lack of a better term) that an newborn infant has in order to learn and perhaps simulate a childhood.

Obviously this will have some limitations on what is possible:

• No Force, including no Astrian Jedi (of course I wouldn't be against Nathan still being attached to the Jedi in some way and/or able to join missions, just no Force powers and stuff.)
• Power requirement for population would increase. I'm thinking 3 / 0.1 , this isn't the virtual characteristic their new mechanical bodies would require juice too.
• Interfacing with computers (via a cable) isn't any faster or better then normal keyboard and mouse input. Reason: Astrians don't think like computers and computers don't think like Astrians.

Apart from simply being cool it also has some positive features:

• Astrians no longer die from old age (provided they are maintained properly) and are unaffected by all the biological sicknesses like viruses, bacteria and parasites as well as poison.
• Stronger and faster (including reaction times). NOT anything at Jedi level of course. Well maybe one cost-prohibitively expensive prototype (Nathan).
• An economic bonus maybe? No idea what would be a good one. Not required for me.

Thoughts? Ideas? Criticism? Applause? ...Death threats?

[Elmer]

As far I concern, Star Wars has not covered the technology for artificial brains, however, in FWURG we have with the virtual characteristic. You said that you did not aimed for the virtual characteristic immediately (which sounds logical), but may I ask what the specific part from that characteristic you don't like? Because in the way it works, it seems like you want the same as the virtual provides, only with different fluff, but well, we can adjust the fluff :)

[Dragonmaster352]

Well technically you only need an advanced computer that is also small, at least in theory.

I don't like the whole virtual world thing. Sure, a virtual city running on a server with lots of people sounds nice. But it isn't the way I want to go with this.

Technically what I want is to turn the Astrians into a race of advanced sentient droids with a touch of A.I. related things. That is a very boiled down way of putting it, but it is about as simple as I can put it.

[Elmer]

On the technological part: For the Cradle, I had made a start for a supercomputer tech with Chriz during the latest write-a-ton, I think such a tech can be an excellent part in the tech tree of your robot-race :)

On the ‘virtual’ characteristic: In my opinion, we can adjust the fluff a little to make the characteristic more widely applicable. Because it seems to me that overall it represents exactly what you want if your only concern is the ‘spend most of its time in a virtual world’ part.

Therefore I propose the following: We adjust the description of the virtual characteristic to the following:

Virtual characteristic

Your race has given up their corporal brains and live inside the computer now. Either being entirely virtual without any body at all, being a cyborg with a virtual brain or being entirely mechanical. Living this way generates a lot more information as idea’s flow free without the restrictions of reality, or slow communicational problems, but the power requirements are huge.

[Dragonmaster352]

I don't really think it's a good idea to create a technology that adds a racial characteristic, nor do I want to change the existing racial characteristics of the Astrians.

As said before, I don't need an economic bonus in order to want this tech. If people feel that would wake it unacceptable.

That said, I like the supercomputer tech idea. It also gives me an idea for the fluff for the transition. I will post the idea later this weekend.

[Brend]

After some thinking, I feel that the scope of what you suggest is much larger than simply upgrading the level of computing technology a bit. Actually transferring from biological to artificial brains is not a trivial step.

In my humble opinion, what you describe sounds more like a very, very cool end-game goal. And I think it should be treated as such. Unfortunately, I am not yet clear on how this would work out, in part because you have in no way described how you would expect the transition to happen for the Astrians. So, I look forward to your idea with patience :)

[Mercury]

I think Brend makes a good point as for the late game nature, and I think we can work this out into a neat technology perhaps. Have you looked into the Eldar infinity circuit and the Protos Dragoons? Those technologies might be roughly what you are looking for? Even if not, the contrast between them and what you want might help illuminate the details you are looking for?

[Dragonmaster352]

Have you looked into the Eldar infinity circuit and the Protos Dragoons?

Having looked these two up I can honestly say that neither are what I'm looking for.

Actually transferring from biological to artificial brains is not a trivial step.

I'm well aware of that. My point is that for all intense and purposes the brain is a very advanced biological computer, it's the programming (read: conciousness and intelligence) that creates the most difficulty.

Now, I promised some fluff so I shall deliver.

I have already established that the amount of cybernetics each Astrian has differs. Full cyborgs even have more cybernetics than biological parts. While this offers several advantages to them, it also has two major problems. The first problem is a short term problem, compared to the other problem. The Astrian brain doesn't run on electricity. So Astrian full cyborgs need biological parts that can supply their brain with the required nutrients and stuff. Astrians consider that a problem and problems need to be solved.

By downloading their neural activity patterns and memories into a computer replica of their brain, they suddenly have a brain that runs on electricity. Which can be supplied or generated locally. The process of downloading memories and patterns subsequently fries the brain, eliminating the doppelgänger problem. Arguably this is a form of Artificial Intelligence (I feel it is only fair to open that particular can of worms).

The second problem is more long term. Technically Astrian full cyborgs can't reproduce. At least not in a non-assisted way. As more Astrians become full cyborgs this becomes a bigger problem. After all full cyborgs still die of old age. Currently this is solved by storing genes of full cyborgs. If the entire population became full cyborg and something went wrong with the storage of genes the Astrians would go extinct after about 200 years. The solution to the first problem only adds to this.

As Astrians already view Artificial Intelligence and "Natural" Intelligence as roughly the same, so it's not a big stretch to get them to say: "They're the same." It doesn't come as a surprise then that creating new AI could be considered as reproduction. However, instead of just programming a new AI, a biomemetic approach would offer solutions for the problems that would cause. (note: I'm throwing the whole nature vs nurture discussion out the window or this will never get done) A basic learning program with a few operational protocols to make sure everything keeps running smoothly. The learning program then adds additional programming based on memories, experiences etc. Much like a child learning new things and becoming an adult, the program learns new things and becomes a full AI.

These two combined would result in the whole transition of the Astrians. Obviously this would take a significant amount of time. As such it would work perfectly as an end-game goal. The supercomputer tech would be an obvious stepping stone toward that end. These ideas conflict with the Artificial Intelligence rules, I am well aware of this. That said I believe these rules don't take these ideas into account nor that they where intended for the scenario I present.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As well as what would need to be adjusted, if anything, in order to make it viable.

[Brend]

My point is that for all intense and purposes the brain is a very advanced biological computer, it's the programming (read: conciousness and intelligence) that creates the most difficulty.

I disagree: as I see it the distinction between the concepts of programming and computer, when applied to a brain, is a purely artificial one. The way I see it, the brain is a single unit. You can not separate the programming from the computer -- it is a 'one of a kind' hard-wired device.

Brains work by exploiting all kinds of strange interplays between different aspects of reality: the physical and chemical interplay makes it much more than simply a hardware frame on which a conciousness program is running. Sure, there are resemblances between brains from different individuals, but these are due to the general purpose of the organ, not due to the fact that they are interchangeable between consciousnesses.

I feel that the claim "By downloading their neural activity patterns and memories into a computer replica of their brain, they suddenly have a brain that runs on electricity." trivializes one of the largest barriers to immortality.

However, your fluffy description seems to be mostly an explanation of how the Astrian's would view the concepts. And as such, it has helped me get some insight into the way that you (I'm assuming that Dragonmaster352 wishes on transastrianism and the Astrian's wishes align) want to view the transition into another form of life.

It has not yet given me an insight into the unique facets (or even the pros and cons) of this transition.

I am sure that the following is not actually what you want: what you describe sounds to me like "I want to have an immortal population, without the drawbacks as described in the Artificial Intelligence special." And the thing is that those drawbacks (that is, having no body by virtue of the Virtual characteristic, and not being able to reproduce) were put in place for a strong reasons.

Which leads me to the next part...

Have you looked into the Eldar infinity circuit and the Protos Dragoons?

Having looked these two up I can honestly say that neither are what I'm looking for.

Could you try to pen down how the following three things are different from how you envision the Astrian transcendence? These three things all present some form of transcendence, and exploring how they are different from Transastrianism will help you to get a clearer idea of what you want, as well as help us better understand what you are looking for.

• the Infinity Circuit (from the WH40k universe)
• the Protoss Dragoons (from the Starcraft universe)
• The Artificial Intelligence special (from our very own FWURG universe)

Even if you can only point out different aspects of the other three ideas that you do not like would help us better understand the what you are looking for. Seeing one or two things that you feel are right will also help of course.

Hopefully when we see some concrete differences, this will allow us to better assist you in finding a way to fit them into the FWURG universe ^_^


I'm sorry that we can not quickly get to a point where you can start working towards your (awesome!) goal... The idea is very cool, but a difficult one to understand and work with. I am sure you understand, having read up on transhumanism :)

(As an aside, I had some difficulty reading the previous post until I realized that there both OOC and IC facets to this discussion. The fact that the Astrians IC think that that Artificial Intelligence and "Natural" Intelligence as roughly the same does not in any way make it so with regards to the OOC rules -- there can very well be other ways for AI and NI to coexist, even if the Astrians think it works like this. Nor do the OOC rules we declare necessarily have any bearing on what people and cultures think ICly.)

[Dragonmaster352]

As a self-proclaimed transhumanist I fully understand this is a difficult concept to wrap ones head around.

Foregoing the highly interesting discussion on how the brain and the mind interact and work (we could argue about that until the point science finds the actual answer), I'll try to answer your questions an critiques. I'll also try to be clearer between IC and OOC.

I'll start with the question I find easiest to answer: The difference between the Astrian Transcendence and the Protos Dragoon, the Infinity Circuit and FWURGs Artificial Intelligence.

According to the Starcraft wiki, a Dragoon pilot is a grievously wounded Templar that is transplanted into the exoskeleton. So the exoskeleton keeps the biological parts working. I would like to remove biological parts from the Astrians all together.

The Infinity Circuit, while interesting, has a group conciousness. I prefer to keep the Astrians individuality.

The AI special, I think my problem is a bit abstract. To me the AI special is basically that you have an AI, programmed from scratch by a programmer. This is quite different from turning an existing biological conciousness into an AI. Personally I think this would result in a few distinct differences. One of those differences would be the ability to move a physical body in a natural way. Another difference would be a more emotional personality.

What I want with this is for the Astrians to transcend their biological limitations and for them to gain control of their own evolution.

And the thing is that those drawbacks (that is, having no body by virtue of the Virtual characteristic, and not being able to reproduce) were put in place for a strong reasons.

Could you please explain those reasons? Perhaps then I can come up with some alternative drawbacks or fit my ideas within those limitations.

It just occurred to me I may be misinterpreting your question. Are you asking for the fluff about how the transition between the biological brain and the technological brain works? How the conciousness it transferred?

[Elmer]

I don't really think it's a good idea to create a technology that adds a racial characteristic, nor do I want to change the existing racial characteristics of the Astrians.

I think that adjusting your racial characteristics is inevitable. You are making major changes to your race, this inevitably would change characteristics. For example, when all biological parts are exchanged for mechanical parts, than you cannot really talk about cyborgs anymore. So in my opinion, you cannot really make your entire race 100% robot without changing your racial characteristics. Its like saying: “I want my entire race be able to fly, but I do not want to take the ‘natural flight’ characteristic.”

On the implementation part: I was thinking, maybe that (fluffwise or ruleswise) the computer-brain can be implemented with help of a crystal, a brain-crystal. Crystals are already more or less the deux ex machina from Star Wars when it is about computers (not only Star Wars btw.)

We have also already determined that copying is a thing, so copying a brain to a brain- or b-crystal is really a thing. Slow, expensive, fries the brain like Dragonmaster said yada yada. In my eyes, the use of such b-crystals removes a lot of the ‘brains are computers or vice versa’ discussion, since now ‘brains are crystals’. I don’t know if this was also the area Dragonmaster352 was looking into?

But this crystal-fluff still does not solve the rules problems. I remember that the AI rules limitations are in place for a reason, but I don’t remember the reasons anymore, and currently I am not in the position to look up the discussion around the creation of the AI special.

[Brend]

@Dragonmaster352 (and the rest): Please accept my apologies for being slow in replying to this topic. Some other things got in the way of FWURG, and I have only been able to get some real posting in yesterday. I now have some spare time to put into this topic again.

I plan on re-reading the whole of Special Proposal: Artificial Intelligence, to refresh my own memory and to help me answer your question about the limitations on Artificial Intelligence. I hope to write a reply this evening (or night), if I don't get to it will be written and posted thursday evening at the latest.

[Brend]

This post is split into two parts. The first simply lists the reasons for the two constraints that were mentioned earlier in this topic. In the second part I ask a question (those of you that are only interested in the juicy parts, skip to the tl;dr color).

Part the First

First off, the reasons for the limitations of the AI special:

• No body: after carefully reading of the Artificial Intelligence special and the thread, I conclude that this constraint is in there in part because Mercury did not want to play a race of robotic humanoids, but true AI. The second, admittedly weaker, part is that AIs being able to inhabit bodies does not fully jive with the Star Wars approach to droid actuation and smarts. (There is significant discussion on this, I will certainly come back to this in a later post.)
• Not being able to reproduce: This constraint is in place to prevent the 'I copy the AI program for infinite population' exploit. The idea behind this exploit being that an AI is data on a computer, and data on a computer can be copied. If data can be copied, new poplation can simply be cloned in by copying the AI program and state.

Part the Second

When I started to write this post, I had the feeling that it was going to be a long post. So, I started writing full of optimism and the hope to keep this short (yeah right, like that's going to happen). I have several ideas on how these constraints apply to transhumanism in the setting (and thus by analogy on transastrianism). While writing, I discovered that I am confused about the actual goal that Dragonmaster352's has in mind...

I think I have been confused (or, more accurately, derailed into thinking up all kinds of different transhumanist ideas) by the mentions of the Virtual characteristic and the implications of the examples mentioned by Mercury. So, I'm going to paraphrase what I think is the current goal. In their original post Dragonmaster352 states two things:

During the last writ-a-ton a suggestion was made to me that I might develop a technology leading to something similar to the Virtual racial characteristic. Now I like this idea. But I think it could be even more cool if these virtual people could interface with non-virtual astrians in a symbiotic relationship.

Now an idea I came with during the last writ-a-ton was to replace the biological brain of the Astrians with a technological equivalent.

And later on they continue with:

I don't like the whole virtual world thing. Sure, a virtual city running on a server with lots of people sounds nice. But it isn't the way I want to go with this.

Technically what I want is to turn the Astrians into a race of advanced sentient droids with a touch of A.I. related things. That is a very boiled down way of putting it, but it is about as simple as I can put it.

The first mention names 'virtual people' interacting with non-virtual astrians in a symbiotic relationship. As can be seen, it seems that there has been some evolution of the idea over time. This is perfectly logical, but it does lead to me not being sure what the actual goal is.

As I understand the proposed concept right now (and I offer my apologies to all transhumanists for my brutal depiction of this idea) the plan is to:

1. take an Astrian's brain,
2. read out its conscious in a destructive way (that is, the brain itself is no longer functional after the process), and
3. write the consciousness out into a device that will replace the brain organ and that provides the necessary facilities to allow said consciousness to continue existing in a functionally equivalent state.

In effect, this is an extension of Astrian cybernetics. They are currently capable of replacing most organs with technological equivalents. The new insights and technologies coming from this concept would allow the astrians to replace the brain organ as well.

Now, for the question: Dragonmaster352, leaving the method of consciousness extraction and the benefits of having a non-biological brain open for now, does my paraphrasing of the idea like "Extend Astrian cybernetics knowledge and insight to allow replacing the brain" match what you envision?

If so, I can start work on a (probably humongously long) post that argues several points with regards to the AI constraints and the ideas from Dragonmaster352's list of limitations and features. If not, we're going into round two of crystalizing the goal into an explicit form ^_^


PS. I think it would be highly productive -- and interesting -- to discuss on this subject through a more direct medium such as teamspeak. That usually allows for an easier dialogue, and speeds up things That being said, I am more than willing to spend a several hours thinking and writing on the subject to enable this awesome idea within the FWURG universe.

[Dragonmaster352]

does my paraphrasing of the idea like "Extend Astrian cybernetics knowledge and insight to allow replacing the brain" match what you envision?

That is pretty much what I want, yes.

I just had a new set of ideas delivered. We (read: Brend and I) can probably discuss them when we meet with Mercury.

[Dragonmaster352]

I've been thinking on what we discussed over teamspeak. We concluded that creating new AI from scratch wasn't an option because of infinite growth possibilities. Creating new AI from regular (biological/natural) population was acceptable.

Am I correct in assuming my wanting of a growing AI population is (currently) the biggest problem?

I believe I can do a lot of cool stuff with both a split population where biological population can be converted into AI and a non-growing completely AI population. But I'll wait with giving ideas until my question is answered.

[Brend]

In summary: Yes, you are correct.

Note that this is not a crunch (rules only) thing. The fluff should also not offer a way of having growing AI. Due to time concerns I'll not write a long post on this for the benefit of other readers (I might do so at a later point in this discussion, to offer some clarity and have the ideas noted for later reviewing).

[Dragonmaster352]

Ok, now that the question has been answered. I shall spout ideas, as promised.

The conversion fluff
A special liquid crystal is injected into the brain. The liquid crystal bonds to the neural pathways in the brain and mirrors the signals and patterns. The chemical signals are mirrored as light signals, using different frequencies to mirror different chemicals, and electrical just as electrical. Once the entire brain is saturated by the liquid crystal, a chemical is injected into the brain. This chemical causes the crystal to "remember" the signals and take them over. The side effect of the chemical is that it dissolves the organic matter of the brain. Since the crystal is still liquid it can reconfigure itself to a more efficient/effective shape. End of conversion fluff

At this point the liquid crystal can be either transferred to an installation that provides it with power and access to a virtual system, or it can be put in a body with an adequate power system and data links. Possibly it can also expand, adding new connections and gaining processing capability. That depends on what is allowed and which way I choose to go.

Fluff capabilities of Biological and AI
Can process large amounts of data in a short time. Can order around large amounts of droids at the same time (Note: Not control, command). end

I'm purposefully neglecting to tell what kind of relationship there would be between AI Astrians and Biological Astrians. ;P

Fluff capabilities of constant number of AI
Live in a virtual environment, ranging from large city servers to small servers on capital ships. Can take control of a dedicated droid body, they can't interact in the virtual environment when they do it. Possibly this control can also be done via holonet relays if enough capacity (lets say 500 for example) is available to allow control of a body over large distances.end

Thoughts?

[Elmer]

First let me say: Yeey, another step towards your goal and crystals, don’t forget the yeey crystals ^^.

Now my critical thoughts:

Since the crystal is still liquid it can reconfigure itself to a more efficient/effective shape

Personally I do not like the idea of reshaping the brain. Mostly because I have issues visualizing how the liquid would do this: What if the liquid is steered, what if a part of the liquid is separated? The brain is a delicate piece of wutnut, so in my believe when you muck with it say: turning it into a liquid and accidently mix the frontal lobe with the cerebral cortex because you had a hiccup while carrying the tub with the brain, then you’re dead.

At the other hand, when the artificial brain more like a sponge or el pudding, then it is okay for me, since the brain parts are still connected to each other, thus the shape is limited.

Possibly it can also expand, adding new connections and gaining processing capability. That depends on what is allowed and which way I choose to go.

I am very sceptic about the growing processing capability. Again, I don’t believe adding more brain makes you more smart. I can’t plug in more chips in my computer and make it better that way and the brain is inconceivably more complicated. (Okay, I can put in more RAM, and then my computer might have more memory, but than you have a very specialised part of the computer with a very specialised piece of equipment which is designed to have a specialised upgrade. The brain does not really work that way.) More importantly why I am sceptic is because I am afraid that you will run around with (and sorry for the childish way of writing it, that is just me explaining it, not because that is my opinion of you): ‘look at me, al my people are soooo smart and have sooo much brain, I can know and do everything and am untouchable because of brain’. The problem here is the potential unlimited growth in brainpower.

Fluff capabilities of Biological and AI
Can process large amounts of data in a short time. Can order around large amounts of droids at the same time (Note: Not control, command). End

I failed to see what you tried to say here. Can the biological brain process large amount of data, while the AI can order droids? And why can’t the AI process large amounts of data is a short time? Can you elaborate what you tried to tell?

Possibly this control can also be done via holonet relays if enough capacity (lets say 500 for example) is available to allow control of a body over large distances.

First I thought: how about no? But then I thought about it a little more and now I actually like this idea. In fact, I like this idea very much. In fact, I think this can be made into a tech for cyborgs as well, since their connection with their body then is via a wireless holo-net instead of a wire from the brain to the body. That difference is not even that much. The limitation that you need at your disposal(I think less than 500 would be okay, like 1 per person :P) will prevent shenanigans as well. (500, or 1000 wireless people over a population of 4 000 000 is not that breaking after all). Just keep in mind that the connection can be severed as well :).

[Dragonmaster352]

I'm going to wait for a reply from Brend before reacting to Elmer (and possible others if those come along)

[Brend]

The subject matter of this topic is very engaging, and I look back on several more hours spent thinking and considering several points of view and alternatives. The result is the following post ^_^

(Warning: this is a veritable wall of text. Those if you that are impatient should skip to the bottom and seek out the tl;dr color as usual!)

The conversion fluff ...

I love it! I think it is a very fitting aesthetic both functionally and visually. The brain is almost literally used as a template for the creation of an artificial intelligence which, very fittingly, is in a more fluid form.

I'm not sure on the expanding part yet, but I think there's a big difference between expanding (as in, literally growing and gaining processing capabilities) and learning (which is a principal component of being an intelligence, both artificial and biological versions).

(Aside note: We need a good name for the liquid crystals! Just "Liquid crystals" is way too bland, and is going to make the whole complex affair of transference of consciousness sound cheap and cheesy, like a B-rate science fiction series.)

Fluff capabilities of Biological and AI ...

I'm not exactly sure why the word 'Biological' is in there... Unless it is to say that both biological and artificial intelligence has these capabilities, just to contrast with the next section. Which is actually the position I subscribe to for these capabilities:

Everyone with some knowledge of computers can process large amounts of data in a short time, so that part does not seem to be very strange since AI can operate computers as well as biologicals. I do think that there's a certain discrepancy between the type of interaction an AI can have with data versus what someone using a computer terminal can have. I'll discuss this further on in the post.

Ordering large amounts of droids around at the same time does, again, not seem problematic. The clue here is not what kind of flavour your intelligence is, but whether you can apply it to craft fitting instructions for arrays of droids. I actually think that this can be done efficiently regardless of what kind of intelligence you are -- the skill is in programming and ordering droids, and this is still done through the same Droid programming interfaces regardless of how you look at them.

I'm reserving judgement on what you purposefully neglected to tell us (though the discussion below sheds some light on the kinds of interaction I would expect) ;P

Fluff capabilities of constant number of AI ...

There are three slightly related capabilities noted here:

1. Virtual environment 'size', ranging from what is describes as "large city servers" which I understand to be basically a big server park, to "small servers on capital ships" which I understand to be literally what it is named for.
2. Taking control of a dedicated droid body, leaving the virtual world when they do so.
3. Taking control of remote droid body (possibly with the constraint that a serious connection is required)

Placing all these abilities in the context of "the liquid crystals are the brain", I think it is important to keep in mind one thing: although these are AI we talk about they are still localized. Their intelligence is intrinsically linked to the volume of liquid crystal: wherever the crystal goes, so do they. They have a what I will call 'locus of intelligence', a specific place to which their consciousness is bound.


On 1: Virtual environment

When looking at the proposed capabilities through that context, I would say that the first capability, that of being plugged into a virtual environment, is not a problem at all. In this case I envision a kind of matrix-like environment, or some simpler variation of that, where the consciousness manifests.

I would suggest that the requirements for servers necessary to run the virtual environment are very high. This prevents the 'virtual environments in all the things', which cheapens the existence of such environments as I see it. Large capital ships seem a valid physical platform to host such an environment, but probably with limited capacity for attached liquid crystal brains.

My reasoning for this is that the AI consciousness has come to expect certain laws and reactions from the universe it has grown up in, and gathered experience from for their entire existence. To allow meaningful interaction, the virtual environment needs to emulate a lot of aspects from physical reality with enough fidelity to allow the consciousness to meaningfully interact with the virtual world.

I think that, over time, AIs can learn to exist and interact in universes with significantly different modes of operation from the physical world. This is also the 'trick' that would allow AIs to interact with large amounts of data in a different way from biologicals using a terminal. Since fundamental parts of your being have adapted to a universe that was at first completely alien to them, moulding your consciousness to fit well within the universe of data and data manipulation might transform you to an entity utterly incapable of physical interaction and control.

Of course, with time and training they will most likely be able to adapt again to a different set of universal laws (such as the physical laws).


On 2: Taking control of a dedicated droid body

I think that, given that these AI were created in the image of biological intelligence, the AI would be in a unique position in the Star Wars universe to control a physical body and at the same time have the ability to think at a high-functioning level of abstraction. This is in stark contrast to several patterns of cheap droids observed, but not beyond the capabilities of specialist droids or custom-built droids.

I do think that the transfer does require the liquid crystal brain to be literally 'plugged' into the droid body, much like a biological brain is connected to a biological body. In this way, it is I think the purest expression of Astrian cybernetics expertise: the constituent organs of the biological body can completely be replaced with artificial counterparts. The consciousness still exists within the physical universe, and the now full artificial body serves as the same function as filter of perception and actuation as the biological body did for the biological brain.

Analogous to the reasoning about the different universal laws in a virtual environment, I think that the dedicated droid body must be a body that matches the AIs expectations of a body. Biolgical intelligence is very capable of learning to adapt to a changed body, such as learning to get around on stilts, or learning to operate a wheelchair with proficiency after losing one's legs.

But we can not cope with drastic changes until some time has passed to adapt, even if technically possible, I do not think that a biolgical intelligence will adapt immediately when the legs of its body are replaced with a jetpack. The same holds true for AIs that are plugged into a body -- the body should be recognizable by them as a body for them to be able to use it as a body.

The fact that the AI can not interact with the virtual environment follows from the fact that their locus of intelligence lies with the droid body for the time that their liquid crystal brain is attached to the body. This also dictates that there is not really an option to 'quick switch' between the virtual environment and the droid body: a physical change must be made for the locus of intelligence to be moved from the virtual environment to the physical universe.


On 3: Taking control of remote virtual body

Taking control of a remote body is the only capability so far that seems problematic to me. I distinguish two problematic aspects, one rules-related, and one fluff-related. The fluff-related one is actually causing the rules-related one...

Rules related, this capability appears to come very close to being a form of teleportation. Of course, a remote body can only be controlled if it is already in place, but if the AI can take control over enough distance, the effected teleportation of consciousness is enough for me to declare this to be teleportation.

Fluff-related, this capability seems to be the one most likely to step away from the locus of intelligence aspect of the AIs. By being able to assume full control of a remote body, the consciousness is no longer bound to the location and attachment of its liquid crystal brain. This means that either:

The consciousness is actually a consciousness fully realized as data without dependency on the liquid crystal matter. This should not be the case, since it re-opens the can of worms that is 'copying data for infinite population'.

Alternatively, the consciousness is remotely controlling a body through an array of refined controls, as if playing with a marionette. This could be done through some kind of reconstructed virtual environment modelling the remote body and the remote situation...

If this is the case, the enormous amount of data that must be relayed to even allow for the consciousness to observe the remote situation should greatly outrank the data-transfer abilities we currently have in the FWURG universe. Because while the holonet allows for large transfers of data (that is, it has a large bandwidth), it is not particularly responsive (that is, it has high latency) for those kinds of data traffic, which is fine for most uses but not for real-time communication. Any AI remotely controlling a body will experience severe 'real life lag' as the data comes in out-of sync with expectations, and its body will respond much too late to allow any kind of reaction to situational changes (such as are required for walking).

Takeaway

Looking from a perspective of roleplay and interaction I have no desire to tell you how to envision or play your species. The only thing we really need to be on one line on is fitting with the universe. And there, the only problematic aspect I see is the near-teleportation effect of remote control. Seeing how you already hedged your idea with "Possibly this control can be done via holonet relay...", I think you hear the same nagging voice asking if this idea is really fitting with the universe.

That being said, I have some experience as a roleplayer, and if it were my own species I would be discussing here, I would play it on the locus of intelligence. These AIs still have one thing chaining them to the physical world: their liquid crystal brain. This offers many cool limitations that make the species so unique in a way that is not often seen. In my opinion much more interesting than the normal "we are virtual humans". (Note that the IO are definitely not virtual humans, and in fact lack any form of conceptualization with regards to physicality. This is what makes them unique in a different way.)

To exemplify, this is what I would go with were this my own species:

• The conversion exactly as you describe it. Maybe add in an adjustment period after the transference from biological to artificial, to allow for the dramatic option of introducing changes in personality or mindset to individuals that went through the process. This makes it easier to, every once in a while, explain how one of the AI has an different mindset when compared to it's peers, or have one of the undergo a sudden realization of purpose after the transformation, or have one of them experience the whole process in a deeply religious frame of mind.
• Remote controlling is not possible. I find that such limitations usually make for better roleplay and more interesting characters as I have to take this limitation to its logical conclusion. In this case, this would mean that there is actually still a very real possibility to die as an AI in a dedicated droid body. You are carrying your liquid crystal brain with you, and if that's destroyed it is Game Over. Having full remote control takes this risk away since a destroyed remote body would simply mean being 'disconnected' for a short while as you are being plugged back into the virtual environment.
• Virtual Environments on a single world can be interconnected, though the locus of intelligence makes it so that every AI still has a 'home' environment. Virtual Environments can communicate with each other, much in the same way I am now communicating with you people. Three AIs on a capital ship can interact with each other in the local virtual environment. Yet communication with a virtual environment on another ship, or on a world, is limited to the same communications channels and modes that are enforced by the physically present communication links.

Damn, that is one long post. (About 12800 words -- might be one of the longest I have written yet o_O)

@Dragonmaster352: Hopefully you have had time to read this wall of text when next we speak.

@All: If anyone has questions, wants me to clarify my ramblings, or has a different idea on how this should be done: do not hesitate to post!

[Gerben]

@dragonmaster and Brend
Very cool idea and its good to see progress is being made. The last few post have helped to get a clearer picture of the direction dragonmaster wants to go with this.

I'm looking forward to seeing things flesh out a bit more. Thus far I'm all for it, with same reservations about remote control as Brend already described in the previous post.

[Dragonmaster352]

Liquid Crystal: Synthrian Crystal

Synthrian: Synthetic Astrian

A Synthrian brain would be an Astrian brain that has undergone the transcendence process.

At this point I'm kicking out remote control. I'm also nailing down that the amount of Synthrian crystal in a Synthrian brain is fixed. Remove any of it and the brain is broken from the fact the consciousness running on it becomes completely distorted to a point it can no longer function. This happens in a short time. (Astrians would probably build in a device that just kills the brain completely in order to prevent suffering.) Adding any extra won't do anything because the process that creates the Synthrian brain causes a difference between the raw Synthrian crystal and the Synthrian crystal in the brain that differs from person to person. And because the way the Synthrian brain is created it becomes impossible to create more of the exact same Synthrian crystal.

Two idea expansions:

First: Being liquid there would be very few limits to the shape it could take. Of course, the Synthrian brain requires a power source to function. But in theory it could just be poured into a bucket with appropriate power. This offers an interesting roleplay option: Pour two Sythrian brains into a single container and let them mix. This would be an extremely intimate experience for the consciousnesses of each Synthrian brain, because they would be able to explore and stimulate each others consciousness. Unable to stop anything the other does nor keep them out of anywhere. It would make any kind of secret impossible unless the other doesn't go there. But it wouldn't add any ability because the consciousnesses would be to busy with each other (quantum innuendo warning*) to get anything done. The slight difference between each Synthrian brain allows for easy separation. The consciousnesses would need to be careful about that.

Second: Compressing and expanding the Synthrian brain can be used to slightly change the way it processes information and executes tasks. Lets call the Synthrian crystal version of a neuron a Processing node. The Synthrian brain could be expanded, letting it have lots of lesser processing nodes with low bandwidth connections between them, or be compressed, forcing it to have a smaller amount of more powerful processing nodes with high bandwidth connections. Neither would be better in general use. (Though obviously expanded would have a larger volume and lower density, while compressed would have a lower volume and higher density) The compression and expansion are limited to a point. Also for specific tasks one may be better than the other. Think of it a bit like how a single-core processor with a high clock frequency is better at some tasks than a multi-core processor with a low clock frequency and vice-versa. Now I can understand this might conflict with my earlier point of not being able to add or remove Synthrian crystal from a Synthrian brain. But it stands to reason that this expansion and compression would keep the same amount of processing power.

With all that being said, I think the Synthrian crystal would allow my original idea. (Though without reproduction, of course.) So I think I'm going to go with the completely transcended Astrian population rather then the partially transcended population.

My biggest reason for wanting a growing AI population was because I feel my population is to low. But considering this is an endgame tech it takes long to complete. My population still has time to grow and maybe a few techs that give a one time population boost can be squeezed in. Or the transcendence goes per 1.0 or something. No lack of possibilities at least. :)

Long post...

[Brend]

... I feel my population is to low.

Join the club :P

I have two questions to seek clarification of these new ideas:

Is the synthrian brain capable of actuation without external assistance? That is, can it change shape on its own accord?

Why does mixing two brains in a single bucket make them able to understand each other, let alone have unrestricted access to each other consciousness (whatever that might entail), instead of killing them both? Since the moment they mix they are no longer a single synthrian crystal. Which would mean that by mixing at least some tiny part of the synthrian crystal is removed -- they must be mixed as an emulsion, mxiing as a a would mean the both of them become irrevocably unseperable -- is a death sentence for both consciousnesses.

How does expanding and compressing change the types of processing nodes? By analogy, if my brain is expanded it will only look comically large, it won't suddenly have a different kind of neuron. Further, if it's actually a crystal, the amount of compression/expansion possible would quickly come to a halt to prevent the crystal matrix from being torn and killing the consciousness...

Mind you, these are just questions that I think are relevant to answer, not a statement against the idea.