Fwurg

[Brend]

This post consists of two distinct, but related, parts.

This post is not written from a happy place, so some of the language might be a bit harsh. If you feel attacked by any of this, please understand that I first and foremost want everyone to have a good time playing FWURG.


Part the first: This whole slavery business has been hanging over me like the sword of Damocles for half a year now, and quite frankly, it is not much fun for me to roleplay it any more.

I felt that it would be nice for the anti-slavery initiative if you people would be able to get some kind of victory out of it -- after all it is a player-drive initiative with a concrete goal. So, I have deliberately played the Veolians much more docile than they would have reacted. I did this to give you people a chance at getting somewhere without the Veolians going "Oh hell no. Not going to happen!" and starting an all-out political and economical offensive.

This has led to waiting, waiting and some more waiting. You're a power block of four votes and because of you machinations you had the cabinet on your side with Acehtoo sitting as chancellor in turns 181-200. But instead of doing anything with this, you waited. All the while I have this imminent threat of a sudden anti-slavery attack looming over me, forcing me to constantly be on guard. This is made worse because the whole issue is effectively singling out the Veolians as "The Bad Guys" to the point of literally ignoring the remarks of an NPC world in the senate. I try to separate my IC and OOC opinions and feelings, but this is becoming really hard after half a year of having my characters and their culture under near-constant attack.

Half a year later this is where we are: I am now doing all the work for you people, and I am not enjoying it at all... Half my current non-ST topics are about slavery, and I am now at the point where I am trying to actively dodge posting on FWURG because if I want to post something I'll have to write some more posts on the slavery thing.

I'm fed up with being constantly alert. And I'm fed up with being the singled out target. And in all honesty, I am also fed up with you people not using your opportunities. So after much thinking, I have decided what to do about this:

I will keep on being nice until the end of 220. After that moment, the Veolians are done playing nice, and they will start hitting back.


Part the second: I'm still looking for a working compromise! I have not given up and would still like this player initiative to somehow get a partial victory. But I can not do it alone.

Throughout this period, I have been effectively forced to think about slavery in the Commonwealth, to decide on a hundred small details about it. In doing so, I realised that I really enjoy roleplaying this aspect of veolian culture. For me it is a defining quality of the veolian people, in the same way that the Cyborg characteristic is a defining quality for the Astrian people. The veolians form of slavery is a unique and very alien concept when compared to the normal forms of slavery we are used to in the real world and its history. I find that I very much enjoy playing a culture that is less bound to the usual OOC western culture (after all, my OOC life is permeated with normal western values already).

Now, from what I can observe (and that is not necessarily what is really going on), I get the feeling that others do not view the slavery aspect of the veolians as a defining feature. I'm not saying that slavery and cyborg are on the same conceptual level -- but if there was a 'Slavery' racial characteristic I would have had an easier time because I would simply point out that the rules afford me this unique and defining feature. Whereas now, I can only hope that you understand that for me slavery is a defining feature of the people I am playing. I think it is necessary that we find some form of OOC agreement as well on how to handle the IC compromise.

I have a list of potential compromises (or directions for compromises). I'm hoping that, since they seemingly wanted change without conflict, the worlds (and thus their players) that are against slavery have their own list of ideas for compromises so that we can provide inspiration for each other.

To speed things up, let's share lists of possible compromises to see if we can find something that everyone can OOCly agree on.

List of compromises... Click to open...

Over the past three months I have brainstormed several forms of compromise, both through IC meetings and through OOC channels with others. But so far I have not found anything that would actually work. The problem here is that the practice of the Veolian form of slavery is deeply rooted in their culture, and that a compromise does really require both parties to change.

To bootstrap the brainstorming process, here's my list:

• Recognition of Veolian nobility, with the rules of precedence and preferential treatment. (This might be possible, though feedback from the Teprogrenaians shows this to be difficult)
• Prohibition of artificial birth control and artificially induced abortion, unless for medical reasons. (This is highly unlikely to be accepted by the worlds that are against slavery)
• Keep slavery, but give extra rights to slaves. (vague; unclear how this should be arranged within the Union)
• Synthetic implants: only medically necessary, and not going above and beyond what the species is naturally capable of. Those that are augmented beyond the medically necessary are to be sterilized. (will never be accepted by ACA, Teprogrenaian Consensus)
• Fully sequenced genetic analysis of every individual are given to the Veolian Commonwealth. (Will most likely not be accepted)
• The Veolians receive 500 per for the coming 50 (not fun, I don't like economic compromises)
• The Union starts donating 2000 per to the Slave rebellion to assist them tax bracket 1 is raised with 100 . (not fun, I don't like economic compromises)
• The Hiocans, Astrians, Remunzians, Teprogrenaians and the Veolians start donating 200 per to the Slave rebellion. (not fun, I don't like economic compromises; also, this will artificially keep small economies small)

Next to the compromise, there's the matter of phasing out the slavery itself. There's multiple options on the table here as well: prohibit trading and acquiring slaves (will eventually, over a span of decades, abolish slavery), phase slavery out over a period of a few years (will "rather quickly" abolish slavery), or even freeing all slaves immediately (very very expensive, and creates it's own set of problems).

Because the Veolians are so far removed from OOC western culture, and several worlds are really basically worlds with the default western culture, no compromise that has actual value for the veolians is likely to actually be accepted.

[Dragonmaster352]

First off, let me tell you that I have some idea of how you feel. I've had my own troubles when I switched between the STF and the ACA.

That said, personally I think the whole system you created with the different Houses and the Nobility in the Veolian Commonwealth is just as defining as slavery. As is their obsession with lineage. Which both are very un-western. (on a side note: Personally, I think what constitutes as 'western' culture is up for debate. Evidence of this can be seen in the differences between the USA and EU.)

I think part of the problem is that currently everyone likes where their own faction is at right now and since nothing else was going on in the Union on a political level we started looking for trouble. The open use of slavery by the Veolians was an obvious target for that.

All this, however, does not help fix the problem. As you already know the ACAs problem is the owning part. And we already discussed a suitable solution for that via PM. The thing with creating a compromise is that I don't know if, besides cybernetics, the Veolians have any other qualms with Astrian Culture. Or the culture of other worlds for example.

[Brend]

That said, personally I think the whole system you created with the different Houses and the Nobility in the Veolian Commonwealth is just as defining as slavery. As is their obsession with lineage. Which both are very un-western.

I agree that those are also very defining qualities. But so are the ACA's lack of a marriage, or the Teprogrenaian's concept of concensus-groups. And I'm guessing neither of you would OOCly want to stop using the cybernetics because you still have other defining qualities...

On the matter of what the Veolians would like very much: prohibition of artificial birth control and artificially induced abortion, unless for medical reasons. That concession would be worth something to them, but the Teprogrenaians effectively shot this down already. Ironically enough because they found it difficult to define.


I think that there is a very important aspect of veolian slavery that is being utterly ignored by anyone arrayed against slavery. It is more like a marriage than like owning a fine horse. In human history marriage has been an announcement to the world of a deep relation between two people which includes procreation as well. With the veolians' strong focus on procreation, these two concepts have become separated (I credit Mercury for putting it this way). Marriage is for procreation and politics, but leaves out the deep relation aspect. Veolians bond with their slaves on a deep level, to the point of everyone agreeing that their relation is so deep that it does not whether master or slave takes an action... I have tried to make this clear every time people received information on veolian slavery, but this message has not been received it seems.

[Stuiter]

I think it is good to find a compromise. The Veolian are indeed interested in a deal, but I do no see Diominius beeing interested in a compromise.
I have no good idea of what kind of cultural compromise. I want also want this discussion to have a good end.
I have thought about giving up nobility, but that is even more important than slaves to the Veolian, so I do not see that working.
Other things would be economic measure of some sorts, extra tax.
I do not want to the Union to break up any further, so I wanted to keep it civil.
Hopefully we can come up with something.

[Mercury]

Its excellent to see everyone is willing to seek a compromise on this to bring it to a satisfying end for all - respect!

Regarding Deominius, I'd say don't worry about then too much, I can sort them out once the key players (i.e. you guys) have come to an arrangement :)

[Elmer]

Both IC and OOC I want to see this come to a good end. In al fairness, it would be satisfactory enough for my faction when the status quo remains and all discussion just stops.

Possible non-economical compromise would be:
The mandatory preservation of nature. (Shot down by the Veolians)
Priority for traffic of important people (partially shot down by the Veolians)
Giving some important token a Veolian name. (Like renaming the Bossy spine or a certain sector to the Veolian Emperor)

[Dragonmaster352]

The mandatory preservation of nature. (Shot down by the Veolians)
Priority for traffic of important people (partially shot down by the Veolians)

Uhm what? Weren't these proposed by the Veolians?

[Elmer]

The mandatory preservation of nature. (Shot down by the Veolians)
Priority for traffic of important people (partially shot down by the Veolians)

Uhm what? Weren't these proposed by the Veolians?

The nature preservation was proposed by the Consensus, the priority for traffic of important people is an adaptation on the proposal of the Veolians after discussion. (I believe the result was that the Veolians saw the option in the proposal but not how to implement it in a satisfying way. Therefore they first would like to explore other options to see if there was not something less convoluted. The Consensus proposed this compromise with... interesting wordings.)

[Brend]

Actually, the veolians started out with "Recognition of Veolian nobility, with the rules of precedence and preferential treatment." and the Teprogrenaians counter-proposed "Recognition of Veolian nobilityimportant people, with the rules of precedence and preferential treatment.", and this was seen as effectively a compromise of "You give up slavery, and in return we insult you (by saying that your nobility is equal to commoners with some influence)." ~_~

I have thought about giving up nobility, but that is even more important than slaves to the Veolian, so I do not see that working.

I agree that that will work even worse. I don't even understand how exactly you see 'giving up nobility' fitting into the plan to abolish slavery.

@Dragonmaster352: we discussed a partial compromise in PM. It was mostly about what would be the least amount of change necessary for the Astrians to not reject the changes. It did not really feature what the Astrians would do in return.

I guess I'll be posting in the compromise thread again to see if my next attempt at a compromise meets your combined approval...

(<annoyed rant>This by the way, is what I meant "I'm doing all the work" -- it seems that you people only started thinking of a compromise after deciding that the Veolians are wrong and attacking them for it through several channels; and since you didn't really come up with any plan or strategy beforehand I had to start out by doing that to try and bring this to a partial victory.

I'm hoping that those involved will learn from this. So, next time they decided that they want to change the world, they know what they are willing to do in return, or at least have an best alternative if the immediate call for change is not met with enthusiasm.</annoyed rant>)

[Dragonmaster352]

What would you say about putting the Union Technology Registry under Veolian control? Granting them the exclusive right to oversee technologies researched by multiple worlds and the trade of these.

This would make them the default party to approach if you want to do anything with technology. Personally, I wouldn't even have a problem with allowing them to be able to sell co-researched technologies without needing to consult the other parties, though they probably would still require their share of the money.

Or we can go a little crazy and build a secondary jedi temple on Mirda?

I admit I pulled these two out of my ass at random, but spamming ideas is a legitimate way to brainstorm.

[Brend]

Control over the Union Technology Registry isn't worth much to the Veolians -- it is only a ceremonial power because by law it is mandatory to sell any technology actually registered there due to cooperative research at half price, and the other technologies are there because someone gave them to everyone, so you can simply approach that entity to receive it. Though the idea of some kind of preferential influence on something does make a good 'veolian appeaser' :)

If I understand it correctly, there might already be a Jedi temple on Mirda -- the Jedi have temples on other worlds already. I might be mistaken though. If it turns out that it is a really big thing™ to have Jedi temple on your world, this is certainly a very interesting thing for the veolians. After all, it is good for the veolians if the Jedi have a stake in keeping the Veolian homeworld defended. And it would create cultural transfer through familarity.


I also still think that the "Recognition of Veolian nobility, with the rules of precedence and preferential treatment." is still a very strong one, if it is not watered down too much to the point of it becoming an insult. This one seems liked by at least the ACA, and the Teprogrenaians were willing to discuss it. Veolian nobility likes what most nobility likes: to have their egos boosted by recognition of their (sometimes imaginary) importance to the world at large. Oh, and of course the 'first choice' of commissioned positions in the Union military -- those are a really good selling point when selling this to the Veolians. The problem with this one is that the other Union worlds might balk at the idea.

[Elmer]

I must confess that I don't really get what the idea is of "Recognition of Veolian nobility, with the rules of precedence ". The Recognition of Veolian Nobility, I get that. They don't get anything at all out of it other than that people say they exist.

But I don't understand what the rules of precedence uphold.

[Dragonmaster352]

But I don't understand what the rules of precedence uphold.

Basically it means they get preferential treatment based on their noble rank. Meaning the highest ranking noble gets the job. Right?

If I understand it correctly, there might already be a Jedi temple on Mirda -- the Jedi have temples on other worlds already.

True, but I always imagined these where few and far between, definitely not one on every Union member world. Mostly they are outside the Union. At least that's how I imagined it. Considering the importance of the Jedi, I would argue that it is 'a really big thing™'.

[Brend]

But I don't understand what the rules of precedence uphold.

Basically it means they get preferential treatment based on their noble rank. Meaning the highest ranking noble gets the job. Right?

Correct. OOCly order of precedence is mostly a ceremonial thing nowadays, but in history it has seen much wider application at court and in the handing out of relevant positions.

If I understand it correctly, there might already be a Jedi temple on Mirda -- the Jedi have temples on other worlds already.

True, but I always imagined these where few and far between, definitely not one on every Union member world. Mostly they are outside the Union. At least that's how I imagined it. Considering the importance of the Jedi, I would argue that it is 'a really big thing™'.

I'm not sure on the actual distribution of Jedi temples. If it is indeed the case that Jedi temples are far and few in between the veolians would see this as a big thing™. But that doesn't say that the Jedi agree with them being blatantly used as a negotiation token -- which is why the veolians are never going to propose this themselves. They have too much regard for the Jedi to even think up this proposal.

[Stuiter]

Acknowledging "important people" seems to me as the best option until now as a compromise.

[Brend]

Acknowledging "important people" seems to me as the best option until now as a compromise.

Like I said, if it is about acknowledging "important people" instead of "Veolain Nobility", the veolians actually see this as an insult. For them this is a deal where they surrender an important part of their identity in exchange for being insulted by being made equal to commoners that also think they're important.

[Stuiter]

No, I indeed mean nobility and other forms depending on culture.

[Brend]

No, I indeed mean nobility and other forms depending on culture.

(Emphasis mine)

And that part is exactly the problem the veolians have with it. They do not want to be equated with non-nobility.

[Stuiter]

Religious orders could also be considered nobility. I want to keep role-play opportunities open, so I do not want to limit it only to nobility. Maybe we can have carious classes of important people.

As you have discussed this, I would like you to make a proposal in the discussion.

[Brend]

Obviously the veolians will not accept members of religious orders as nobility. However, they would be very agreeable to saying that there are not two, but three classes of people: nobility, members of religious orders, and commoners. After all, the Jedi are clearly not commoners, but they are not nobility according to the veolians.

Maybe you can try your hand at it first? I think a good start would be including what castes you propose, and what rights and concenssions they should have.