Fwurg

[Praetorian Empire]

With the current system the only limitation for spending tax is being able to build one zone at the time on a planet. Since i currently want to build 4 zones on 1 planet i am extremely annoyed by the delays i am gonna get.
Problem:
My zone is currently at (1600/2000) . Next turn i will have around 1000 spendable , but i can only spend 400 on the zone. I want to be able to start the construction of the next zone. Since the system uses flow it is stupid that you have to wait till the next turn before being able to spend more .

Technology proposal:
Chain Construction

This technology allows you to spend a maximal of one zone in tax per planet. This tax can be spread over 2 zones where the first one must be finished with the tax it receives.
This means you are allowed to spend 2000 on a regular planet or 1000 on a planet with natural life. When zone 1 is at (1600/2000) and you have 1000 spendable you can now spend 400 on zone 1 to complete it and 600 on Zone 2 to set it at (600/2000).

What will this cost in terms of and ? Since i would like to research this tech immediately.

[Veolian Commonwealth]

I think this can be done, while still keeping the rationale of 'no optimization in one go' intact.


First off, we need to think about upgrades. As an upgrade of a zone (such as the 'Improved' upgrade for +50 production) is considered the same as building a zone by the current rules.

To keep the original rationale in effect, the technology should still be limited to at most one project completion per turn. This prevents double upgrade scenario's.


Secondly, this tech seems to try and fix a more persistent problem: the fact that income cannot be buffered. Emulating buffered income requires some weird hijinks with tax transfers and extremely short-term loans to and from friendly factions. Having done this to and fro bouncing with tax at the start of the game, I can tell you that it is bookkeeping intensive, and therefore boring.

This tech would become obsolete the moment income buffering becomes available. So this might be a good time to shamelessly plug a request for 'money'.


However, as 'money' has been on the long list of todo items (ranked below 'Military Fleets' afaik) I think a rephrasing of the tech proposal will do (this rephrasing drawn up together with Chriz):

Adaptive Construction Machinery

By adapting construction rigs and reprogramming construction droids new projects can be initiated more efficiently, as no new rigs have to be set up.

This technology allows the start of a second construction project on a planet directly after the first completes. You can spend up to the normal amount of tax on construction projects on the planet (i.e., 2000 without natural life, 1000 with natural life). You are still limited to completing only one project on the planet each turn.

I guesstimate the research costs around 2500 / 4 . Though the tech does allow faster planetary development (mainly by taking out forced pauses during planetary development), it does not offer an unbalancing advantage. The same effect can be reached by developing multiple planets at the same time (something that is easier if one constructs a 'better' star system at the start of one's game).

Please deliberate and comment.

[Mercury]

Though in the case of Terraformation there are two steps, this is essentially the same problem as raised here (link).

I am forced to agree that there is a strange "bump" in the design where things aren't as smooth as they should be.

The problem rises from two competing design choices - on the one end, we use flow as our base production method. You essentially pump money into a project like terraformation / zone building or upgrading / etc, until it is fully inflated, then redirect the flow to the next project.

On the other end, I want to prevent rich players from having a virtual mona lisa cannon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrJeYFxpUyQ, starts at about 5:00), with which they can paint planets up from "stupid rock" to "fully terraformed mining colony" in a matter of weeks.

The reason for this is not just that its more realistic (you couldn't fully industrialise a planet, even a small one, in such a timespan), but also to slow down players with a lot of money - as money brings in more money, growth becomes exponential (not actually due to other limitations, but in principle).

Now, as mentioned, these two create the strange bump in the design.

I believe the technology proposed by Chriz and further detailed by Brend is excellent for helping to resolve this, without disrupting either of the design choices at work. I would set the cost at the same cost as one average zone (between 1000-2000), so 2500 is a bit too high imho. I'd say 1500 instead. The turn duration looks about good, I'd have put it down in the 3-5 range so 4 turns is smack in the middle.

I approve of the proposed technology, with a price of 1500 and a research duration of 4 . I've added it on the wiki (it still needs an icon though).

Looking this all over, I think the construction capacity limitation (on terraformation, zone building, etc) could use some clarification and updating. Currently it is not very smooth or clear (several problems were mentioned and questions for clarification needed to be asked) and I have added an entry to the todo list.

[Veolian Commonwealth]

As link has moved over here, I'll detail my response over here as well.

As already said, terraformation is a two-step process. And the effects of the bump encountered by zones are amplified by this: when performing multiple terraformation projects in sequence, you are force to put in a single-turn gap in which the next intiation research is done.

Since and are not the same, this effectively requires the producer of to halt all production, and flush the modules (and losing a sizeable chunk of income). Normally, one would offload excess goods to other factions, as they are most happy to receive them. However, terraformation requires 25 per , or the project ends in disaster for the subject planet. This makes offloading a bit tricky.

As seen the effects of the bump are amplified: not only is a burst-payment of the total initiation research sum in a single go the most efficient way to do things, it's either that, or delay the next terraformation project until the interleaved project is finished, requiring even more bookkeeping and headache-inducing haggling over timetables (people are really impatient, it seems).

So, to ease my own headaches and remove the analogous bump in terraformation, I'll propose another technology (even though I strongly adviced against yet another terraformation technology).

Environmental Factor Rebalancing

By careful monitoring and predictions of the impact of ongoing terraformation processes multiple terraformation projects can be initiated as if they were only components of a single larger project.

By using this technology, multiple terraformation projects (the components) can be composited into a single project. The sequence of components must be a legal sequence (i.e., the sequence of component projects must be valid if done seperately).

The initiation research cost of the composite project is equal to the sum of the component projects. The required amount of terraformation modules is equal to the sum of the component project's amounts. The minimum duration of the final project is equal to the sum if the minimum durations of the component projects.

The larger project fails or succeeds as a single project: it is not possible to stop the process half-way.

The biggest problem is the tech cost in both and . I see no obvious way to average this out, as that would either lead to a very high (in case of averaging terraformation tech costs) or very low (in case of averaging initiation research costs) price. Though this technology allows slightly more efficient terraformation, it's main contribution is the removal of the single-turn flow hiccups. Since the initiation research must still be paid up front and in full, starting a composited project requires a larger commitment.

Since I don't really like proposing a technology just to patch up an annoyance, I've tried finding a little extra feature that might spice it up. Unfortunately I couldn't find any such feature without destroying the careful balance of terraformation costs. Maybe someone else might have an idea for some less-related side-benefit.

[Sundarian Federation]

Instead solving this problem with, indeed, yet another technology, shouldn't we perhaps consider to change to rules concerning Terra formation to solve this issue. As Brend has pointed out, there are many terra formation techs and the issue at hand is very small, and hard put in a framed cost for new research without breaking up the careful balance.

[Veolian Commonwealth]

After some more discussion with Chriz, we concluded that such a terraformation technology is not beneficial to the game mechanics.

It fixes the problem mainly for the climate projects, as these have a very short duration with respect to the other projects. Secondly, this tech will postpone the receiving of bonuses until the complete terraformation process is completed.

I have no idea how this should be remedied, but I'm still not looking forward to laboriously distributing a minimum of 25 to multiple factions.

We have thought about allowing the climates to be folded into the creation of an atmosphere. It might also be possible to allow the initiation research to overlap with the actual payment. As it is already described as 'research' this is not too much of a stretch. Maybe a technology (+ some side benefit -- still want to spice it up) or rules fix aiming at that will hit the spot.

And to quote Chriz from our discussion IRL:

The terraformation rules are convoluted. Why require both tax and modules if they effectively do the same?

[Mercury]

My current idea's range from changing the rules in such a way that we shift from activity limitation to a build-slot and finishing limitation.

Currently you can only spend X on one zone on one world. With the Chain Construction tech, you can spend X on one zone on one world, finish that zone and spend Y on another zone on that world. Best case you spend on 2 zones, but you can still finish only one per turn.

However, by the current rules, you are allowed to work on as many zones as you want, and pause construction. For example:

Turn 1: spend 500 / 1000 on zone A on planet Q
Turn 2: spend 200 / 1000 on zone B on planet Q
Turn 3: spend 400 on Zone A (now 900 / 1000) on planet Q
Turn 4: spend 600 on zone B on planet Q (now 800 / 1000)

etc. You could do this with any number of zones and even pause construction for an extended period of time.

The new proposal would remove the restriction on consecutive zone building while still limiting you to finishing one zone each turn. In so far it is identical to the Chain Construction technology.

However, the new proposal places the additional limitation, that once you start building a zone, you have to finish it before you can start construction on the next zone.

I am now ready to hear that this is a terrible idea that ruins the money and effort you are spending on the Chain Construction technology you are all working on That's what you get for asking me to post my idea's before they're done ^_^

In the case of terraformation, I am as of yet unsure. On the one side, I am considering treating the terraformation research as a technological development - that means you can research as many as you want simultaneously, without taking up a "slot".

However, I am also considering that it would be unrealistic to do research on how to improve a Type II atmosphere to Type I on a world that only has a Type III atmosphere and is currently being terraformed. Realistically, terraformation has a huge impact on the way the planet functions and you probably wouldn't be able to start researching the next step until the previous one is finished. This has some implications on the game however to the disadvantage of those who perform terraformation services.

[Veolian Commonwealth]

The new proposal would remove the restriction on consecutive zone building while still limiting you to finishing one zone each turn. In so far it is identical to the Chain Construction technology.

However, the new proposal places the additional limitation, that once you start building a zone, you have to finish it before you can start construction on the next zone.

This is very brilliant; we (Chriz and me) want this! (He wants a refund for his into the chain construction tech though.)

It's interesting how you add an 'additional limitation'. We (at least me and Chriz) already had interpreted the rules as if they had a build-slot limitation, and very neatly made sure that we did not start two construction projects on the same planet/moon. Apparently your definition of "construction" is "put into the zone this turn", while we read it as "has, at some point in the past, already put some into the zone and has not yet finished this project". So for us this limitation is not actually limiting our options in any way, we had already limited ourselves exactly the way you describe.

I am now ready to hear that this is a terrible idea that ruins the money and effort you are spending on the Chain Construction technology you are all working on That's what you get for asking me to post my idea's before they're done ^_^

On the contrary, We really like this idea .

In the case of terraformation, I am as of yet unsure. On the one side, I am considering treating the terraformation research as a technological development - that means you can research as many as you want simultaneously, without taking up a "slot".

However, I am also considering that it would be unrealistic to do research on how to improve a Type II atmosphere to Type I on a world that only has a Type III atmosphere and is currently being terraformed. Realistically, terraformation has a huge impact on the way the planet functions and you probably wouldn't be able to start researching the next step until the previous one is finished. This has some implications on the game however to the disadvantage of those who perform terraformation services.

As I see it, it would be unrealistic if you could NOT pre-emptively do the research for the next step(s). The terraformation process is extremely complex, but we do it within a few weeks. This implies a serious level of terraformation know-how (as exampled by the high development costs of the required technologies as well).

Surely, if we didn't know what we were doing, things would go awry within a few weeks of starting any terraformation project. Not being able to calculate the effects of our previous terraformation steps into the projection of the next would belie the expertise involved.

I therefore suggest that the terraformation initiation research can be done while the previous project is still in process. As a limitation I would suggest that it can not be done at any time; it can only be done if the planets situation after the current project is a legal situation for the start of the next project. (i.e., you can only do a terraformation initiation research for a project if the planet already can be terraformed by the project, or if the current project enables this.)

[Praetorian Empire]

I agree with Brend on the chain construction above.

On the Terraforming I am fine with the proposal by Brend. It is much better then the current situation at least. It could work, but I propose a different mechanic that could make it easier. I would say: remove the initiation cost for separate terraformation projects but do one (bigger) survey research for a specific planet that enables you to do terraformation on it in general.

Since you are not really looking into the application of the specific technologies but you need the specifics on the planet involved. You already payed 5000+ tax for knowledge about your terraformation technology. This planet survey research could be based on planet size just like everything else is.

I propose something like 150 per zone:
Small moon: 150
Medium Moon: 450
Large Moon / Small Planet: 1050
Medium Planet: 2850
Large Planet: 5550

[Sundarian Federation]

Either proposal from Chris or Brend works, but while Chris's proposal is cheaper when applying multiple projects to one planet, I think the mechanic and balancing in tech prices are better suited with Brends proposal since everytime a terra-forming project finishes on a planet, the planet is significantly altered thus requiring some for of research into the new situation.

[Praetorian Empire]

I need the current status of the chain construction rules / technology before tomorrow evening. I can not make my turn report when this is still unclear.

[Veolian Commonwealth]

I need the current status of the chain construction rules / technology before tomorrow evening. I can not make my turn report when this is still unclear.

Seconded.

EDIT: If I don't have this information, I will not participate in joint research into the Chain construction tech, as this will only make this more difficult when everything is changed when a decision has been reached. Sorry Chriz.

[Mercury]

Here's the decision everyone has been anxiously awaiting.

With regards to the construction of zones, we'll use the same method as I described. Players were enthusiastic about it and I think it resolves some of the problems. I will write up the details in the rules this weekend, but since you all already know how it works, you can start using it right away.

With regards to terraformation, I am going to use the same basic principle as for construction of zones. As soon as you finish one terraformation process, you can start on the next. For example, if in one turn you finish the last payment, you can immediately start paying for the next individual planet research on that planet (but you can't finish it that turn). On the next turn, you can continue with those payments. Once you finish payment, you can immediately start payment of , but you cannot finish the terraformation process that same turn if you finished your payments.

This means you can continue paying terramation modules every turn if you plan your spending. The most expensive cost for individual planet research is 1000 and most are less. I believe paying 500 on the ending turn of the previous terraformation process, then finishing the other 500 to continue with payments immediately is reasonable.

This is still harder than regular construction, but I believe terraformation is a complicated process that cannot be convoluted by multiple activities happening at the same time. This should iron out most of the bumps.

If after seeing this in practice it is still too rough, we can adapt then and there.

[Brend]

After some out-of-band (i.e. not on the forum) discussion between Admin, Chriz, Brend and Gerben, we have decided to add an extra option for terraformation.

The remarks on terraformation in the previous post are retracted.

However, it is possible to combine multiple terraformation projects into a single larger project:

• The initiation research cost of the composite project is equal to the sum of the component projects.
• The required amount of terraformation modules is equal to the sum of the component project's amounts.
• The minimum duration of the final project is equal to the sum if the minimum durations of the component projects.

The larger project fails or succeeds as a single project: it is not possible to stop the process half-way.

EDIT: I have updated Terraformation to reflect these changes.

[Chriz]

Does the Chain Construction rule set apply for upgrading a trade fleet as well?
Since you do have the same problem with irregular amounts of .

[Mercury]

Yes it does

[Chriz]

For Clarification:
This means that i could upgrade a trade fleet that is currently at 0/100 with 199 ?
This will give one completion and put the fleet at 99/100 for the next one.

[Mercury]

That's correct. Though next turn, you are limited to spending at most 100 (1 to complete and 99 to put the next fleet upgrade at 99/100)