Colonization
Mercury
Chriz
Gerben
Brend
Stuiter
Freekjan
Colonization
Mercury » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:15 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Here is a first sneak peak at the colonization rules I have been working on. I am still a bit fuzzy about the details of scanning and on the exact prices of everything, but this should give you a good indication of the general gist of things:
Scanning
You cannot do a "general sweep" of the galaxy. Each sector in the galaxy is roughly four billion cubic lightyears in size, featuring more than a hundred-thousand star systems, with countless rogue objects flying about. Even with the most advanced scanning technology, it is not economical to fully map a sector.
At this time, my idea is to have players send out a scanning fleet to a certain location. After travel time, they can begin scanning, which will cost a set amount of money depending on the location they are looking for. There will be six types of locations for Space Habitats, six types of locations for Mining Outposts and an undetermined number of location types for Settlements, each with their own price.
Not all sectors will be available for scanning immediately - technology and diplomatic negotiation may be necessary to unlock certain area's of the galaxy for colonization. For example, the Mandalorian Fleets might get nervous if they see your scanning fleets coming towards them, or a sector may be suffering from hyperspace distortions which requires better scanners to penetrate. Scanning is a slow process and will take time.
Once a location is found, you pay the cost of the type of the associated type of colony to establish it, which is when the real fun begins!
For every location found in a sector, it becomes harder to find another location - the price of all colonies (from all players) in that sector rises. Unlike corporations, it doesn't matter how many colonies you already have - it only matters how many colonies and systems are present in that sector.
Location, location, location
As with all real estate deals, only three things matter: location, location and location. There are three types of locations that can be colonized, depending on the intentions of the settling party.
A Space Location can be colonized by establishing a Space Habitat. Space Habitats can be established in six different types of locations, such as in Nebula and around Exotic Stars. A Space Habitat produces raw materials of one type, depending on the type of location. Those raw materials are transported directly to the home system and which can be used there in the production process.
A Mining Outpost can be established on an actual planet in an actual system. Mining Outposts are established in locations which are not optimal enough to establish a full colony, but which have enough natural resources to make it economically viable to mine. Like Space Locations, they are focussed around one type of raw material and there are six types of location for Mining Outposts.
The difference between Mining Outposts and a Space Location is that the Mining Outpost , though more efficient at producing their raw material, may also produce adjacent raw materials - that is raw materials that can be used to make a product with the primary raw material, and that it can set up production zones of its own with which to construct products. Mining Outposts earn money by creating a three-set of taxes (each earning 1
) or by trading to get better tax-sets - the difference with regular zones is that due to the high yield location, the mining outpost can produce far more raw materials than you could in a regular system. A Mining Outpost can be upgraded within certain limits - they have nowhere near as many zones as a player controlled system.
A Settlement can finally be established in a high quality star system. Like mining outposts, settlements produce raw materials and products, but at a much slower pace than Mining Outposts, making them run a loss. However, over time, settlements grow and with the purchasing of upgrades and extending of the settlement, they eventually become Independent. When fully grown, an Independent colony has 20 zones: 12 are raw materials zones, 6 are production zones, 1 power zone and 1 open market zone. Effectively the colony is identical to the starting location of a new player with various special options open to the owner of the colony. From this point on, the colony is completely self-sufficient and is run as fully a separate system (except it gets no vote in the Senate).
Maintenance
Each of the three types, Space Habitats, Mining Outposts and Settlements, require maintenance, depending on their level. We recognise three levels of such colonies:
All Space Habitats, starting Mining Outposts and starting Settlements are class I colonies. Class I colonies are totally dependent on their home system, requiring a constant supply
Food, 
Utilities, 
Construction Materials and 
Healthcare Products.
Class II colonies include upgraded Mining Outposts and upgraded Settlements. They are more self-reliant, but still require certain complex materials which they cannot produce themselves, including
Consumer Goods, 
Electronics, 
Exotic Matter Devices and 
Vehicles.
Class III colonies finally include further upgraded Settlements only. These settlements have become mostly self-reliant and would survive without outside contact, but they are not large enough to compete intergalactically and would fall behind in technology and weapons development quickly. They require being supplied with
Entertainment, 
Research, 
ICT Technology and 
Weapons until they become Independent.
To supply colonies, a player who is colonizing must assign a fleet of MTCF's. However, rather than assigning an existing fleet, part of the colonization process requires the construction of a trade fleet, which takes MTCF's - the size of the trade fleet is predetermined by the level of the colony and upgrading may require expanding the fleet. In the case of Space Habitats, the same fleet also transports the raw materials back to the home system. Mining Outposts and Settlements have their own economies - you cannot transfer goods between the two, so to bring goods back to your home system requires you to assign a trade fleet. You are free to transfer funds to and from your colonies.
Profitability
Colonies are potential money makers - they will be balanced to be an interesting choice, though requiring a large initial investment and maintenance, meaning they are not available to new players, but established ones will have the means to support them and make a profit. I am still running the numbers on this and will post more on it later to get your input.
For now, this is a lot of info and I am curious to hear your views.
Scanning
You cannot do a "general sweep" of the galaxy. Each sector in the galaxy is roughly four billion cubic lightyears in size, featuring more than a hundred-thousand star systems, with countless rogue objects flying about. Even with the most advanced scanning technology, it is not economical to fully map a sector.
At this time, my idea is to have players send out a scanning fleet to a certain location. After travel time, they can begin scanning, which will cost a set amount of money depending on the location they are looking for. There will be six types of locations for Space Habitats, six types of locations for Mining Outposts and an undetermined number of location types for Settlements, each with their own price.
Not all sectors will be available for scanning immediately - technology and diplomatic negotiation may be necessary to unlock certain area's of the galaxy for colonization. For example, the Mandalorian Fleets might get nervous if they see your scanning fleets coming towards them, or a sector may be suffering from hyperspace distortions which requires better scanners to penetrate. Scanning is a slow process and will take time.
Once a location is found, you pay the cost of the type of the associated type of colony to establish it, which is when the real fun begins!
For every location found in a sector, it becomes harder to find another location - the price of all colonies (from all players) in that sector rises. Unlike corporations, it doesn't matter how many colonies you already have - it only matters how many colonies and systems are present in that sector.
Location, location, location
As with all real estate deals, only three things matter: location, location and location. There are three types of locations that can be colonized, depending on the intentions of the settling party.
A Space Location can be colonized by establishing a Space Habitat. Space Habitats can be established in six different types of locations, such as in Nebula and around Exotic Stars. A Space Habitat produces raw materials of one type, depending on the type of location. Those raw materials are transported directly to the home system and which can be used there in the production process.
A Mining Outpost can be established on an actual planet in an actual system. Mining Outposts are established in locations which are not optimal enough to establish a full colony, but which have enough natural resources to make it economically viable to mine. Like Space Locations, they are focussed around one type of raw material and there are six types of location for Mining Outposts.
The difference between Mining Outposts and a Space Location is that the Mining Outpost , though more efficient at producing their raw material, may also produce adjacent raw materials - that is raw materials that can be used to make a product with the primary raw material, and that it can set up production zones of its own with which to construct products. Mining Outposts earn money by creating a three-set of taxes (each earning 1
) or by trading to get better tax-sets - the difference with regular zones is that due to the high yield location, the mining outpost can produce far more raw materials than you could in a regular system. A Mining Outpost can be upgraded within certain limits - they have nowhere near as many zones as a player controlled system.A Settlement can finally be established in a high quality star system. Like mining outposts, settlements produce raw materials and products, but at a much slower pace than Mining Outposts, making them run a loss. However, over time, settlements grow and with the purchasing of upgrades and extending of the settlement, they eventually become Independent. When fully grown, an Independent colony has 20 zones: 12 are raw materials zones, 6 are production zones, 1 power zone and 1 open market zone. Effectively the colony is identical to the starting location of a new player with various special options open to the owner of the colony. From this point on, the colony is completely self-sufficient and is run as fully a separate system (except it gets no vote in the Senate).
Maintenance
Each of the three types, Space Habitats, Mining Outposts and Settlements, require maintenance, depending on their level. We recognise three levels of such colonies:
All Space Habitats, starting Mining Outposts and starting Settlements are class I colonies. Class I colonies are totally dependent on their home system, requiring a constant supply
Food, Utilities, Construction Materials and Healthcare Products.Class II colonies include upgraded Mining Outposts and upgraded Settlements. They are more self-reliant, but still require certain complex materials which they cannot produce themselves, including
Consumer Goods, Electronics, Exotic Matter Devices and Vehicles.Class III colonies finally include further upgraded Settlements only. These settlements have become mostly self-reliant and would survive without outside contact, but they are not large enough to compete intergalactically and would fall behind in technology and weapons development quickly. They require being supplied with
Entertainment, Research, ICT Technology and Weapons until they become Independent.To supply colonies, a player who is colonizing must assign a fleet of MTCF's. However, rather than assigning an existing fleet, part of the colonization process requires the construction of a trade fleet, which takes MTCF's - the size of the trade fleet is predetermined by the level of the colony and upgrading may require expanding the fleet. In the case of Space Habitats, the same fleet also transports the raw materials back to the home system. Mining Outposts and Settlements have their own economies - you cannot transfer goods between the two, so to bring goods back to your home system requires you to assign a trade fleet. You are free to transfer funds to and from your colonies.
Profitability
Colonies are potential money makers - they will be balanced to be an interesting choice, though requiring a large initial investment and maintenance, meaning they are not available to new players, but established ones will have the means to support them and make a profit. I am still running the numbers on this and will post more on it later to get your input.
For now, this is a lot of info and I am curious to hear your views.
Gerben » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm
At first glimpse, the ideas for colonization and the different options look interesting. I like the idea of first scanning for a location type and subsequently settling separate options. But actually judging this proposition is a bit difficult without an indication of the investment and most importantly , maintenance costs. (which by the way are a good idea and are suited for the different types of colony types)
I also have some questions:
1) Could you give an indication of the amounts of materials required for maintenance? (i.e 10, 50, 100..)
2) Does the player that wishes to establish a colony have to do the scanning her/himself or is it possible to have a third party contractor just for the scanning?
I also have some questions:
1) Could you give an indication of the amounts of materials required for maintenance? (i.e 10, 50, 100..)
2) Does the player that wishes to establish a colony have to do the scanning her/himself or is it possible to have a third party contractor just for the scanning?
Chriz » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:40 pm
The general idea seems promising but without the numbers i can't say much about it yet.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Brend » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:40 pm
Mercury wrote:When fully grown, an Independent colony has 20 zones: 12 are raw materials zones, 6 are production zones, 1 power zone and 1 open market zone. Effectively the colony is identical to the starting location of a new player with various special options open to the owner of the colony. From this point on, the colony is completely self-sufficient and is run as fully a separate system (except it gets no vote in the Senate).
Clarification request: The term 'Independent colony' is unclear to me. is the colony still under control of the 'spawning faction', or does it form an independent faction with sovereignty?
The text seems to suggest that it becomes a 'fully separate system' (although without a vote). The lack of vote might indicate a dependence relationship still exists -- it has a full-blown economy with everything, but no vote; which is weird as other economies of the 'colony' size (20 zones as a starting system) do get a vote.
Mercury » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:39 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
It is a separate system run by the same player - there is no game-technical connection between the home system and the independent colony. The colony remains under the control of the player, but it is no longer dependent upon the host system for survival. It can survive on its own without outside help. As such, it is de-facto independent (in the sense that it can survive on its own).
However, it is not independent de-jure. That is, the colony does not gain sovereignty from the motherland. The exact manner in which sovereignty is handled is up to the player and is considered an 'internal political affair'. However, the Union won't recognise the colony as its own world and thus it won't get a vote in the Union, nor will it be counted as a separate Union member. Stronger even - if the host nation does not consider it part of its territories, the Union might not even protect it.
The exact details of how the law handles colonies is a 'todo' - for now I see the Union Tax as a "per faction" and not a "per system" thing, for one. Does that answer your question?
However, it is not independent de-jure. That is, the colony does not gain sovereignty from the motherland. The exact manner in which sovereignty is handled is up to the player and is considered an 'internal political affair'. However, the Union won't recognise the colony as its own world and thus it won't get a vote in the Union, nor will it be counted as a separate Union member. Stronger even - if the host nation does not consider it part of its territories, the Union might not even protect it.
The exact details of how the law handles colonies is a 'todo' - for now I see the Union Tax as a "per faction" and not a "per system" thing, for one. Does that answer your question?
Mercury » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:44 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Gerben wrote:At first glimpse, the ideas for colonization and the different options look interesting. I like the idea of first scanning for a location type and subsequently settling separate options. But actually judging this proposition is a bit difficult without an indication of the investment and most importantly , maintenance costs. (which by the way are a good idea and are suited for the different types of colony types)
I also have some questions:
1) Could you give an indication of the amounts of materials required for maintenance? (i.e 10, 50, 100..)
2) Does the player that wishes to establish a colony have to do the scanning her/himself or is it possible to have a third party contractor just for the scanning?
I cannot currently give details on numbers as I am still putting them together. Once I have a working model, I'll post it for review - its not much use posting working numbers when they may change by up to 200%.
A player that wishes to establish a colony does not have to scan themselves - you can even sell locations to other players and if multiple players are looking to claim locations in the same sector, there may be a race (because the first colony is cheaper than the second).
Mercury » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:05 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
First beta numbers for the Space Habitat:
Scanning for a location in an otherwise unclaimed Sector will cost 1500 and take several turns (exact number to be balanced with other scans). The construction of the Space Habitat will cost an additional 6000 .
To connect your Space Habitat to your home system you should invest 50
for every zone from your home system to the target system. Bonuses for Hyperspace Lanes do NOT apply. This is a one time investment.
Each turn, you need to ship 15 products each of of Food, Utilities, Construction Materials and Healthcare Products, or 60 products in total. The capacity for this is provided by linking up the Space Habitat, so you do not have to assign a fleet.
So long as you provide these products, the Space Habitat will bring in 500 of a single raw material (determined by the location where the Space Habitat is set up) to your economy. You do not have to ship it to your home system - the capacity is provided by linking up the Space Habitat.
If you fail to provide the necessary products, you do not get the raw materials - in this it functions exactly like a trade: 60 products for 500 raw materials.
Not included in the above cost is the price of the Scanning Fleet itself. Since this is amortised over multiple scans, I do not consider it to be too relevant a factor.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Scanning for a location in an otherwise unclaimed Sector will cost 1500
and take several turns (exact number to be balanced with other scans). The construction of the Space Habitat will cost an additional 6000 .To connect your Space Habitat to your home system you should invest 50
for every zone from your home system to the target system. Bonuses for Hyperspace Lanes do NOT apply. This is a one time investment.Each turn, you need to ship 15 products each of of
Food, Utilities, Construction Materials and Healthcare Products, or 60 products in total. The capacity for this is provided by linking up the Space Habitat, so you do not have to assign a fleet.So long as you provide these products, the Space Habitat will bring in 500 of a single raw material (determined by the location where the Space Habitat is set up) to your economy. You do not have to ship it to your home system - the capacity is provided by linking up the Space Habitat.
If you fail to provide the necessary products, you do not get the raw materials - in this it functions exactly like a trade: 60 products for 500 raw materials.
Not included in the above cost is the price of the Scanning Fleet itself. Since this is amortised over multiple scans, I do not consider it to be too relevant a factor.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Chriz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:16 pm
Mercury wrote:To connect your Space Habitat to your home system you should invest 50
Do you mean sectors here? as in 2 * 50 if you get a space habitat in the sector directly next to the sector of your home system? I would say balance it to use 100
per sector, since all increases are per 100. How about scaling it? Can you start with 5 of each product and get 150 raws for example? Or if you have this baseline can you expand it to get double the amount of raws.
I am actually more interested in the mining colonies personally, since i am not looking for an independent colony, but i do want a larger production with more options.
How about using the system of zones that we are all using now. You can always start with an initial tax cost for setting up the colony and just get X zones to fill that are 2000 tax each and have a production of 250 for example. Than each zone will have a maintenance of 5 of each product.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Brend » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:20 am
Mercury wrote:Each turn, you need to ship 15 products each of of
Again, a clarification request: Does the "or 60 products in total" imply that the actual composition of the shipment does not matter? I.e., can one send 40
+ 20 ; or is this not possible and must the exact distribution be used?
Mercury » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:46 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Chriz wrote:Do you mean sectors here? as in 2 * 50 if you get a space habitat in the sector directly next to the sector of your home system? I would say balance it to use 100
I meant sectors, yes, not zones. Your calculation is correct.
Chriz wrote:How about scaling it? Can you start with 5 of each product and get 150 raws for example? Or if you have this baseline can you expand it to get double the amount of raws.
At this moment I didn't plan on allowing a scaled input, but I am open to the option if there is general player interest in this.
Chriz wrote:I am actually more interested in the mining colonies personally, since i am not looking for an independent colony, but i do want a larger production with more options.
How about using the system of zones that we are all using now. You can always start with an initial tax cost for setting up the colony and just get X zones to fill that are 2000 tax each and have a production of 250 for example. Than each zone will have a maintenance of 5 of each product.
The idea is roughly similar to this - I am still running the numbers on this and will get back with more (I'm currently posting things as I finish them).
Brend wrote:Mercury wrote:Each turn, you need to ship 15 products each of of
Again, a clarification request: Does the "or 60 products in total" imply that the actual composition of the shipment does not matter? I.e., can one send 40
'or' in this sentence is not a logical or but is used in the meaning of "in other words". The required numbers are exact.
Brend » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:45 pm
Mercury wrote:At this moment I didn't plan on allowing a scaled input, but I am open to the option if there is general player interest in this.
I'm not saying that this is required; but it would add some freedom to throttle down one or two colonies without immediately crashing your whole economy. It seems weird to lose all income if you do have most of the required goods.
Depending on the level of abstraction we might say that it is possible to throttle down to at most half of the usually required amount -- lower amounts would not allow the colony to support even a single production facility.
Mercury wrote:'or' in this sentence is not a logical or but is used in the meaning of "in other words". The required numbers are exact.
Crystal clear!
Gerben » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:07 pm
Mercury wrote:
At this moment I didn't plan on allowing a scaled input, but I am open to the option if there is general player interest in this.
I'm with Brend on this, a scaling option would provide for a little more freedom, but there should be a bottom limit.
Chris wrote: How about using the system of zones that we are all using now. You can always start with an initial tax cost for setting up the colony and just get X zones to fill that are 2000 tax each and have a production of 250 for example. Than each zone will have a maintenance of 5 of each product.
This might also be an interesting solution and it would make colonization easier to enter, while the full benefits would require the same amount of investment over time. This provides the players with more Freedom on how far they wish to advance their colony and control its expansion and the return investment.
Chriz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Some of our calculations:
1500 search for suitable location.
1000 for 200 at 5 each. (This would mean a distance of 4 sectors with the 50 per sector)
6000 for 3 space zones with 500 raw material production total.
You have maintenance of 5 of Food, Utilities, Construction Materials and Healthcare Products per zone.
This means 15 of each for the 500 raws.
If you buy them on the open market they will cost you 71 per turn.
You can probably get them cheaper with some trades. Lets say 45 per turn. (Using the 3/8 per raw material needed)
500 raw materials are worth 3/8 each. This is 187.5 per turn is produced.
After the maintenance this is 142.5 profit.
8500 (initial investment) / 142.5 per turn = 59.64 ~ 60 turns to repay.
Compared with a normal system.
500 raw materials would need 4 zones of 100 each and 2 upgrades of 50 each.
4 * 2000 + 2 * 1000 = 10000
10000 (initial investment) / 187.5 per turn = 53.33 turns.
Concluding:
Initial investment return is better and faster on a normal planet that only has a production of 100.
You don't have any maintenance cost on these zones. This means after 53 turns it is completely repayed in a normal system.
In the normal system the return is alot faster, after the first investment of 2000 you already have raw materials. For the space habitat you will need at least 4500 if we see it as 3 zones.
In my opinion this means that probably nobody wants a space habitat unless he has all the zones in his system filled.
1500
search for suitable location.1000
for 200 at 5 each. (This would mean a distance of 4 sectors with the 50 per sector)6000
for 3 space zones with 500 raw material production total.You have maintenance of 5 of
Food, Utilities, Construction Materials and Healthcare Products per zone.This means 15 of each for the 500 raws.
If you buy them on the open market they will cost you 71
per turn.You can probably get them cheaper with some trades. Lets say 45
per turn. (Using the 3/8 per raw material needed)500 raw materials are worth 3/8
each. This is 187.5 per turn is produced. After the maintenance this is 142.5
profit.8500
(initial investment) / 142.5 per turn = 59.64 ~ 60 turns to repay.Compared with a normal system.
500 raw materials would need 4 zones of 100 each and 2 upgrades of 50 each.
4 * 2000
+ 2 * 1000 = 10000 10000
(initial investment) / 187.5 per turn = 53.33 turns.Concluding:
Initial investment return is better and faster on a normal planet that only has a production of 100.
You don't have any maintenance cost on these zones. This means after 53 turns it is completely repayed in a normal system.
In the normal system the return is alot faster, after the first investment of 2000
you already have raw materials. For the space habitat you will need at least 4500 if we see it as 3 zones.In my opinion this means that probably nobody wants a space habitat unless he has all the zones in his system filled.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Mercury » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:19 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
The reason I did not make the original design scalable is because I wanted colonisation to have a high setup cost. A high setup cost means it is hard for a starting player to get into it as they don't have the scale of economy to set this up. Likewise, the high amount of raw materials produced requires a solid setup of industrial capacity to process, which also wards off starting players who cannot handle that amount of raw materials.
My aim is to make setting up a colony a significant act of scale - big and important and only available to elite societies. If you can just invest a few thousand to set up a simple colony, then it takes away some of the glamour.
Chriz, I made a similar calculation to yours regarding the efficiency of Space Habitats (though I used slightly different numbers on resource pricing and setup distance, the basic idea is the same) and set them up at around the level of a regular zone on an unterraformed planet.
That means the setting up of a colony is a balanced alternative to settling a planet inside your system (it is slightly worse, as your calculation shows as well as mine, though in mine the difference is not quite so big. I came to about 55 turns ROI vs 53 1/3rd). As suggested earlier, this is a deliberate design choice.
The reason I place the efficiency at this level is to have room for technologies that make colonization cheaper. From the current conference I already envision techs to decrease the cost of scans as well as technologies to allow cheaper construction of colonies. Other technologies might improve the quality of locations found (more resource output).
Additionally, I want to have the option of introducing special events. For example, a scientist might discover a long abandoned Space Habitat in a sector placed by some pre-times-of-chaos civilization, allowing relatively cheap startup for a new colony on the ancient infrastructure. Alternatively, a new location may be discovered by accident by a travelling Jedi chasing a criminal. If the price is already too good, such a gift would be an immediate "I must jump on this", while if the price is fairly balanced, the option is interesting, but not obviously superior to everything else.
The reason colony costs rise when more colonies are settled in a sector is similar to this, and serve as a means of control against exponential growth. They won't begin to play a part until players have set up multiple colonies (which is where the exponential growth reduction should start to take effect).
My aim is to make setting up a colony a significant act of scale - big and important and only available to elite societies. If you can just invest a few thousand to set up a simple colony, then it takes away some of the glamour.
Chriz, I made a similar calculation to yours regarding the efficiency of Space Habitats (though I used slightly different numbers on resource pricing and setup distance, the basic idea is the same) and set them up at around the level of a regular zone on an unterraformed planet.
That means the setting up of a colony is a balanced alternative to settling a planet inside your system (it is slightly worse, as your calculation shows as well as mine, though in mine the difference is not quite so big. I came to about 55 turns ROI vs 53 1/3rd). As suggested earlier, this is a deliberate design choice.
The reason I place the efficiency at this level is to have room for technologies that make colonization cheaper. From the current conference I already envision techs to decrease the cost of scans as well as technologies to allow cheaper construction of colonies. Other technologies might improve the quality of locations found (more resource output).
Additionally, I want to have the option of introducing special events. For example, a scientist might discover a long abandoned Space Habitat in a sector placed by some pre-times-of-chaos civilization, allowing relatively cheap startup for a new colony on the ancient infrastructure. Alternatively, a new location may be discovered by accident by a travelling Jedi chasing a criminal. If the price is already too good, such a gift would be an immediate "I must jump on this", while if the price is fairly balanced, the option is interesting, but not obviously superior to everything else.
The reason colony costs rise when more colonies are settled in a sector is similar to this, and serve as a means of control against exponential growth. They won't begin to play a part until players have set up multiple colonies (which is where the exponential growth reduction should start to take effect).
Chriz » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:04 pm
With some decent technologies it should at least become something special.
Still this means the initial investment will grow.
The technologies better be effective to make it a viable option.
I like the idea of special events. But it might be hard to balance these since they are rare.
Still this means the initial investment will grow.
The technologies better be effective to make it a viable option.
I like the idea of special events. But it might be hard to balance these since they are rare.
Player of the Praetorian Empire
Mercury » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:22 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Chriz wrote:With some decent technologies it should at least become something special.
Still this means the initial investment will grow.
The technologies better be effective to make it a viable option.
The basic assumption was everyone would want to make technologies at the current conference so people would start out with making them ^_^ The cost of technologies can be amortised not just over the colonies of the developing player, but over that of the other players with the tech as well, since there are likely to be technology trades or cooperative development.
Colonies are never going to be as effective as building on a planet that is already fully terraformed. If you have zones on your goldilocks world with oceans and a type I atmosphere, I'd advise filling those first. But with their base level at equivalent to regular (non-terraformed) planets, I think the technologies will give them enough of an interesting place to be good, viable options.
Chriz wrote:I like the idea of special events. But it might be hard to balance these since they are rare.
They are rare, but I expect no major difficulty in balancing them. I have been adding rare special features to games for a while now and I think I have the details down. Naturally I will carefully calculate fairness before I introduce anything like this. Since I can't share details on future storylines without spoiling them, I'll have to ask that you trust me on this
Brend » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:45 pm
@Mercury: What are your thoughts on scanning & survey?
As I see it now, we miss some information on this. While we known that a survey will cost roughly 1500, there are probably costs for the upkeep of the survey fleet as well.
Another issue is the 'how' of surveying. Does one order up a
Mining Colony location within sector X Y?
It would be nice to know how much influence one has over the location. Can we survey a specific sector only, or do we have some further impact on the actual location that will be found? Whether a location for a space habitat or a mining colony is found has a serious impact on the usefulness of the location, and having no control over this makes the whole surveying business a rather luck-based investment.
EDIT: Used 'sector' instead of 'zone'
As I see it now, we miss some information on this. While we known that a survey will cost roughly 1500
, there are probably costs for the upkeep of the survey fleet as well.Another issue is the 'how' of surveying. Does one order up a
Mining Colony location within sector X Y?It would be nice to know how much influence one has over the location. Can we survey a specific sector only, or do we have some further impact on the actual location that will be found? Whether a location for a space habitat or a mining colony is found has a serious impact on the usefulness of the location, and having no control over this makes the whole surveying business a rather luck-based investment.
EDIT: Used 'sector' instead of 'zone'
Last edited by Brend on Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mercury » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:47 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
The idea for scanning is that you choose your zone and the target of your search, pay the amount of time and resources and get your location as a result. I considered an element of chance for a long time, but I could not justify this in the over-the-web environment.
Mercury » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:21 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I have made a proposal for colonization rules which now includes mining outposts and all the details of scanning. Not yet included is the colonization of new systems.
Brend » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:45 am
(I'll split my comments into multiple posts, for easier linking.)
After thoroughly reading the new proposal I have one burning question:
"What happened to the distinctive difference between the Space Habitat and the Mining Outpost?!" --Brend
The sneak preview contained the brilliant mechanic of allowing a Mining Outpost to (and I quote from the first post) "also produce adjacent raw materials - that is raw materials that can be used to make a product with the primary raw material, and that it can set up production zones of its own with which to construct products."
Though the current proposal didn't drop this notion altogether, it seems like it has really been relegated to the sidelines, as no mention is made of bonuses to the adjacent raw materials, or the products that are required to create a tax set. In the current proposal you can only create a tax set if you fill only 2 out of 7 zones with the boosted raw material. This means that you're practically forced to forget this interesting scheme, and just built 7 raw material zones and ship everything home (or you'd miss out on a +500 production bonus) -- basically what a space habitat does.
It appears to me as if the distinctive feature that made the Mining Outpost so brilliantly different from a more 'normal' raw material fountain has been removed in favour of having a rather large raw materials boost.
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I also have a clarification request, that might be related to the point above: in the Upgrading section of the page, the following phrase can be found: "Each of these zones has a bonus of +100 to the raw materials chosen during scanning." Take note of the plural 'raw materials'.
This seems to contradict the statment in Scanning: "When you scan for a Space Site or Mining site, you must choose a raw material to indicate the type of the site." Take note of the singular 'raw material'.
Which of these sentences is incorrect?
After thoroughly reading the new proposal I have one burning question:
"What happened to the distinctive difference between the Space Habitat and the Mining Outpost?!" --Brend
The sneak preview contained the brilliant mechanic of allowing a Mining Outpost to (and I quote from the first post) "also produce adjacent raw materials - that is raw materials that can be used to make a product with the primary raw material, and that it can set up production zones of its own with which to construct products."
Though the current proposal didn't drop this notion altogether, it seems like it has really been relegated to the sidelines, as no mention is made of bonuses to the adjacent raw materials, or the products that are required to create a tax set. In the current proposal you can only create a tax set if you fill only 2 out of 7 zones with the boosted raw material. This means that you're practically forced to forget this interesting scheme, and just built 7 raw material zones and ship everything home (or you'd miss out on a +500 production bonus) -- basically what a space habitat does.
It appears to me as if the distinctive feature that made the Mining Outpost so brilliantly different from a more 'normal' raw material fountain has been removed in favour of having a rather large raw materials boost.
--
I also have a clarification request, that might be related to the point above: in the Upgrading section of the page, the following phrase can be found: "Each of these zones has a bonus of +100 to the raw materials chosen during scanning." Take note of the plural 'raw materials'.
This seems to contradict the statment in Scanning: "When you scan for a Space Site or Mining site, you must choose a raw material to indicate the type of the site." Take note of the singular 'raw material'.
Which of these sentences is incorrect?
Mercury » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:02 am
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Mercury - Storyteller
Brend wrote:"What happened to the distinctive difference between the Space Habitat and the Mining Outpost?!" --Brend
The simple fact is I couldn't for the life of me make the number work.
A Mining Outpost will never produce a tax set of 12 - it's simply not big enough. Having it produce a tax set of 3 will never compete with having a fleet ship the products to the home system to use in a tax set of 12.
I couldn't find a way around this conundrum. The problem is that once you accept the goods will be shipped to the home system, there is no longer a reason to pay to build zones at the mining outpost when you can build them for the same price in your home system.
I am still looking and very open to suggestions on resolving this (as I prefer the mining outpost making tax sets and producing products myself), but I wanted to get this out there first so you have a better idea of the scale I was thinking on for Mining Outposts. The second issue revolves around this solution as the plural is in error from an earlier draft.
Brend » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:32 am
Purely for information and later reference of the current proposal (I calculated this, and then realized that I could spare some time of other people by posting this):
1) Begin with ignoring cost of scanning.
2a) Fully functioning Space Habitat:
2b) Cost = 6000 construction + 225 * distance to base system D
2c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 4.16666 (= 500 output / (15 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
3a) Fully functioning unupgraded Mining Outpost
3b) Cost = 5000 construction + 2000 third zone + 3 * 1000 upgrades = 10 000
3c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 3.75 (= 750 output / (25 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
4) Factor in cost of scanning.
4a) We can ignore constant cost of survey fleet (100 + 400 
+ 1 Open Market Zone) as it is equal for both sites
4b) Scanning for Space Habitat 1500 over 3 
4c) => total Space Habitat set-up cost: 7500 + 225 * D
4d) Scanning for Mining Outpost 3000 over 4
4e) => total unupgraded Mining Outpost set-up cost: 13 000
5) We can conclude that an unupgraded Mining Outpost is worse than a Space Habitat with respect to raw material exchange rates.
6) Now to compare with the upgrade Mining Outpost
6a) Fully functioning upgraded Mining Outpost
6b) Cost = 5000 construction + 5000 upgrade + 5 * 2000 zones + 7 * 1000 upgrades = 27 000
6c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 4.375 (= 1750 output / (50 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
7) Factor in cost of Scanning
7a) Per 4d => total upgraded Mining Outpost set-up cost: 30 000
7) Return on Investment (= cost / ( raw material income per turn - upkeep per turn ):
7a) ROI for Space Habitat: 52.63 + 1.58 * D (= ( 7500 + 225 * D ) / ( 500 * 0.375 - 15 * 4 * 0.75 ) )
7b) ROI for unupgraded Mining Outpost: 63.03 (= 13 000 / ( 750 * 0.375 - 25 * 4 * 0.75 ) )
7c) ROI for upgraded Mining Outpost: 59.26 (= 30 000 / ( 1750 * 0.375 - 50 * 4 * 0.75 ) )
8a) Factor in cost of required trade fleet to ship goods to and from Mining Outposts; I can't account for all possible variables in this, so I assume that the required fleet is free of charge (one of the starting fleets) and large enough. This assumption is allowed, as the addition of any kind of fleet will not reduce the price of a Mining Outpost.
8b) We can conclude that, while the upgraded Mining Outpost outperforms the Space Station with respect to raw material exchange rates, the Space Habitat outperforms both the upgraded and unupgraded Mining Outposts on Return of Investment basis iff D <= 4.
And now some guess-work:
9) When we retract the assumption of 8a, we can still roughly compare the two colony types.
9a) Each increase of D costs 50, these have a translated raw material cost of 225 (= 50 * 4.5 ), and allow an extra sector of distance from the base system.
9b) Depending on local factors (such as hyperspace lanes, available technologies and holonet relays) the cost of an extra sector of distance between the base system and a Mining Colony might require an investment of 10 - 100.
9c) In case the average sector cost of the trade route from the base system to the Mining Outpost becomes larger then 0.5 per sector (unlikely in the neighbourhood of the Bozzy Spine), the Space Habitat's ROI will be more favourable. In case the average sector cost is below the 0.5 per sector, the Mining Colonies ROI might become more favourable.
1) Begin with ignoring cost of scanning.
2a) Fully functioning Space Habitat:
2b) Cost = 6000
construction + 225 * distance to base system D2c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 4.16666 (= 500 output / (15 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
3a) Fully functioning unupgraded Mining Outpost
3b) Cost = 5000
construction + 2000 third zone + 3 * 1000 upgrades = 10 000 3c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 3.75 (= 750 output / (25 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
4) Factor in cost of scanning.
4a) We can ignore constant cost of survey fleet (100
+ 400 + 1 Open Market Zone) as it is equal for both sites4b) Scanning for Space Habitat 1500
over 3 4c) => total Space Habitat set-up cost: 7500 + 225 * D
4d) Scanning for Mining Outpost 3000
over 4 4e) => total unupgraded Mining Outpost set-up cost: 13 000
5) We can conclude that an unupgraded Mining Outpost is worse than a Space Habitat with respect to raw material exchange rates.
6) Now to compare with the upgrade Mining Outpost
6a) Fully functioning upgraded Mining Outpost
6b) Cost = 5000
construction + 5000 upgrade + 5 * 2000 zones + 7 * 1000 upgrades = 27 000 6c) => Effective raw material return per material sent: 4.375 (= 1750 output / (50 upkeep * 4 goods * 2 raw materials) )
7) Factor in cost of Scanning
7a) Per 4d => total upgraded Mining Outpost set-up cost: 30 000
7) Return on Investment (= cost / ( raw material income per turn - upkeep per turn ):
7a) ROI for Space Habitat: 52.63 + 1.58 * D
(= ( 7500 + 225 * D ) / ( 500 * 0.375 - 15 * 4 * 0.75 ) )7b) ROI for unupgraded Mining Outpost: 63.03
(= 13 000 / ( 750 * 0.375 - 25 * 4 * 0.75 ) )7c) ROI for upgraded Mining Outpost: 59.26
(= 30 000 / ( 1750 * 0.375 - 50 * 4 * 0.75 ) )8a) Factor in cost of required trade fleet to ship goods to and from Mining Outposts; I can't account for all possible variables in this, so I assume that the required fleet is free of charge (one of the starting fleets) and large enough. This assumption is allowed, as the addition of any kind of fleet will not reduce the price of a Mining Outpost.
8b) We can conclude that, while the upgraded Mining Outpost outperforms the Space Station with respect to raw material exchange rates, the Space Habitat outperforms both the upgraded and unupgraded Mining Outposts on Return of Investment basis iff D <= 4.
And now some guess-work:
9) When we retract the assumption of 8a, we can still roughly compare the two colony types.
9a) Each increase of D costs 50
, these have a translated raw material cost of 225 (= 50 * 4.5 ), and allow an extra sector of distance from the base system.9b) Depending on local factors (such as hyperspace lanes, available technologies and holonet relays) the cost of an extra sector of distance between the base system and a Mining Colony might require an investment of 10 - 100
.9c) In case the average sector cost of the trade route from the base system to the Mining Outpost becomes larger then 0.5 per sector (unlikely in the neighbourhood of the Bozzy Spine), the Space Habitat's ROI will be more favourable. In case the average sector cost is below the 0.5 per sector, the Mining Colonies ROI might become more favourable.
Brend » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:45 am
Mercury wrote:The simple fact is I couldn't for the life of me make the number work.
Mercury wrote:I am still looking and very open to suggestions on resolving this (as I prefer the mining outpost making tax sets and producing products myself)
I'm afraid you're right. I'll think on it -- but as you said, once the shipping starts, it's just a matter of getting the biggest bonus.
We need some way to decouple the production bonus from the shipping part. Maybe we shouldn't even allow shipping of raw materials from a Mining Outpost. One could argue that, since the site is not good enough for a full-blown colony, the gathering and harvesting of raw materials alone is only worth the effort if it is directly integrated with the processing and manufacturing?
EDIT: Allowing only products from a Mining Outpost would also strengthen the concept of Space Habitat => Raw Material, Mining Outpost => Product, Full Colony (or whatever it's name will be) => Tax Set. This would be a good thing in my opinion.
Stuiter » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:57 pm
Mining post should do what the name says, be good is producing raw materials.
Maybe you could lower the construction cost, as the station should be smaller and simpler then space habitat.
Other posts could then process the goods to make tax-set and earn more money.
Maybe you could lower the construction cost, as the station should be smaller and simpler then space habitat.
Other posts could then process the goods to make tax-set and earn more money.
Brend » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:01 pm
This post is contains a proposed Mining Outpost fix that Chriz, Mercury and I came up with.
What we've come up with is best explained with an image:
(Picture: A fully upgraded outpost consisting of 3 clusters of 3 zones each, and a single extra zone.)
The idea is as follows: Each cluster has an associated product, and the three zones in that cluster will have bonuses accordingly. For example Cluster 2 has as an associated product, so it will contain two zones with a +100 
and one zone with +100 
. This pattern (+100 material A, +100 material B and +100 Product AB; where A and B might be equal) is the same for every cluster, though each cluster has it's own associated product. While you are free to build whatever zones you like, the bonuses will only be available in the already mentioned pattern.
When scanning for a site, you select a product (the example uses). After spending the required amount of and , you'll find a site for an Outpost. This Outpost will consist of only the first Cluster. The first upgrade will make Cluster 2 available, with an associated product of your choosing (the cluster in the example), and unlock the 'Extra' zone. The second upgrade will make Cluster 3 available, again allowing you to choose the associated product (the example has ).
This free selection offers a choice of economic strategy:
The Extra zone will not gain any bonuses, and can be used to complement the Outpost with whatever extra zone you see fit.
The outpost can support up to 1.0
.
We've also decided to drop the 'Mining' in the name (as Stuiter already pointed out: it was a bit of a misnomer), so we'll just call it 'Outpost'.
I'll leave the cost calculations up to Mercury, as he has all the other calculations as well.
What we've come up with is best explained with an image:
(Picture: A fully upgraded outpost consisting of 3 clusters of 3 zones each, and a single extra zone.)
The idea is as follows: Each cluster has an associated product, and the three zones in that cluster will have bonuses accordingly. For example Cluster 2 has
as an associated product, so it will contain two zones with a +100 and one zone with +100 . This pattern (+100 material A, +100 material B and +100 Product AB; where A and B might be equal) is the same for every cluster, though each cluster has it's own associated product. While you are free to build whatever zones you like, the bonuses will only be available in the already mentioned pattern.When scanning for a site, you select a product (the example uses
). After spending the required amount of and , you'll find a site for an Outpost. This Outpost will consist of only the first Cluster. The first upgrade will make Cluster 2 available, with an associated product of your choosing (the cluster in the example), and unlock the 'Extra' zone. The second upgrade will make Cluster 3 available, again allowing you to choose the associated product (the example has ).This free selection offers a choice of economic strategy:
- One can opt to take three different products, to generate a 3-set.
- One can opt to create the same products, going for a comparative advantage strategy.
- It's even possible to create special goods. and
work by having two product clusters, and one cluster to generate the raw material and the special good itself, offering 100 special goods (and leaving you an Extra zone to work with). Holonet Relays work with only two clusters, one of and one of , and uses the extra zone to place the -zone.
The Extra zone will not gain any bonuses, and can be used to complement the Outpost with whatever extra zone you see fit.
The outpost can support up to 1.0
.We've also decided to drop the 'Mining' in the name (as Stuiter already pointed out: it was a bit of a misnomer), so we'll just call it 'Outpost'.
I'll leave the cost calculations up to Mercury, as he has all the other calculations as well.