Trade Hub
Brend
Elmer
Gerben
Mercury
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As many of you know, the idea for a trade hub has been introduced first through an IC channel. The concept is to have an outpost filled with Open Market zones supporting trade fleets. Each of these trade fleets would then be dedicated to flying goods to a single world. Because of the extreme efficiency of the Bozzy Spine, this would allow everyone to trade with everyone at the cost of a small additional 0.1 trade factor.
Note that the original idea uses the outpost rules as is, and works best if a player builds and exploits the outpost themselves. But the project is much more interesting as a Union-wide project!
Chriz and me put our heads together and discussed possibilities for making a cool project. We look forward to your questions, critique and ideas!
We want this project to be a cool Union-wide achievement, not something that is simply one of many outposts. Because the Union is not supposed to have zones, and because it is more interesting to have a cool project, we propose a unique Union-specific project that can only be built by the Union itself.
We propose the following:
The Trade Hub can be constructed only on a suitable location on the Bozzy Spine. Its construction requires 2000
+ 1500 
+ 32000 
and 15 
. Once constructed, it starts providing 20 trade fleet slots. This means that 20 worlds can immediately start using the Trade Hub as a basis for trade.
As the Union grows, so can the Trade Hub. Every additional trade fleet slot costs 100 + 1000 .
The Trade Hub has an upkeep of 10 per per trade fleet slot.
We're calling it the "Trade Hub" for now because we have not come up with a good name yet; nor have I found a satisfying image yet. Names we considered are "Hyperspace Transit Terminal" or "Mass Cargo Transfer Station", yet none of these feel unique enough. We are looking for a one-of-a-kind name in the same vein that "Bozzy Spine" is a unique name.
In this section, I will touch on some points of discussion with regards to the proposed project. Most of these things are things a thought of after talking with Chriz, so these points do not reflect his opinion.
Cost
The cost of the project is roughly based on the Outpost version of the trade hub: an outpost with 3 clusters and improved open market zones on every zone. This requires a location, 1800, 24000 in investments and 30000 in zone construction. Next to this, this requires a 90 upkeep (120 products @ 0.75 ).
If we ignore the location requirement in both sides of the equation, the cost for running a full Outpost for 3 years is 77040 (=1800 * 5.0 + 24000 + 30000 + 90 * 52*3). The total cost for running the Trade Hub for 3 years is 80700 (=2000 * 5.0 + 1500 * 5.0 + 32000 + 10 * 20 * 52*3). As can be seen, the Trade Hub is slightly more expensive, and will continue acruing upkeep faster after the 3 year period.
Additional costs
In this proposal, the investment costs of the trade hub (ignoring location) stand at 49500.
If this is deemed to be of insufficiently epic proportions, there are several possibilities to increase the cost of the Trade Hub. But keep in mind that, in doing so, the alternative of simply building an Outpost and having one world run fleets to everyone becomes more attractive -- in other words, the additional costs might have to be offset by some additional cool unique feature of the Trade Hub.
Possible cost increases are:
Assigning a Trade Fleet
In the current rules, it is a bit unclear if you can reassign a trade fleet to another Open market Zone. Furthermore, with the advent of the use of the Trade Hub, having multiple smaller fleets will become less and less attractive. This will continue up to the point that worlds might want to merge several of their trade fleets into a larger fleet. In fact, if everyone uses the Trade Hub you only need to maintain 2 fleets for trade purposes: one outbound and one inbound fleet.
The merging or retiring of fleets is not possible at the moment. One or two new technologies could be created to allow for the merging, splitting, and rebalancing of fleets. This could also involve the ability to reassign a trade fleet to another trade fleet slot under your control (such as an outpost, settlement, or the Trade Hub).
Note that the original idea uses the outpost rules as is, and works best if a player builds and exploits the outpost themselves. But the project is much more interesting as a Union-wide project!
Chriz and me put our heads together and discussed possibilities for making a cool project. We look forward to your questions, critique and ideas!
Proposal
We want this project to be a cool Union-wide achievement, not something that is simply one of many outposts. Because the Union is not supposed to have zones, and because it is more interesting to have a cool project, we propose a unique Union-specific project that can only be built by the Union itself.
We propose the following:
Trade Hub
A massive cargo transit station directly connected to the bozzy spine, allowing for fast and efficient transfer of standardized cargo containers from one mass transit cargo freighter to the other. Employing the latest in both hyperspace routing algorithms and automated cargo transfer routines, the flow of goods can be redirected with a minimum of delay.The Trade Hub can be constructed only on a suitable location on the Bozzy Spine. Its construction requires 2000
+ 1500 + 32000 and 15 . Once constructed, it starts providing 20 trade fleet slots. This means that 20 worlds can immediately start using the Trade Hub as a basis for trade.As the Union grows, so can the Trade Hub. Every additional trade fleet slot costs 100
+ 1000 .The Trade Hub has an upkeep of 10
per per trade fleet slot.We're calling it the "Trade Hub" for now because we have not come up with a good name yet; nor have I found a satisfying image yet. Names we considered are "Hyperspace Transit Terminal" or "Mass Cargo Transfer Station", yet none of these feel unique enough. We are looking for a one-of-a-kind name in the same vein that "Bozzy Spine" is a unique name.
Discussion
In this section, I will touch on some points of discussion with regards to the proposed project. Most of these things are things a thought of after talking with Chriz, so these points do not reflect his opinion.
Cost
The cost of the project is roughly based on the Outpost version of the trade hub: an outpost with 3 clusters and improved open market zones on every zone. This requires a location, 1800
, 24000 in investments and 30000 in zone construction. Next to this, this requires a 90 upkeep (120 products @ 0.75 ).If we ignore the location requirement in both sides of the equation, the cost for running a full Outpost for 3 years is 77040
(=1800 * 5.0 + 24000 + 30000 + 90 * 52*3). The total cost for running the Trade Hub for 3 years is 80700 (=2000 * 5.0 + 1500 * 5.0 + 32000 + 10 * 20 * 52*3). As can be seen, the Trade Hub is slightly more expensive, and will continue acruing upkeep faster after the 3 year period.Additional costs
In this proposal, the investment costs of the trade hub (ignoring location) stand at 49500
.If this is deemed to be of insufficiently epic proportions, there are several possibilities to increase the cost of the Trade Hub. But keep in mind that, in doing so, the alternative of simply building an Outpost and having one world run fleets to everyone becomes more attractive -- in other words, the additional costs might have to be offset by some additional cool unique feature of the Trade Hub.
Possible cost increases are:
- Location. Currently, we assume that the Outpost location scouted by the Praetorian Empire in
12 -7 is sufficient. It might be that further surveying is required to find the perfect spot, increasing costs commensurately. - Standardization. Additional costs could be incurred by standardization of cargo containers. Currently each world flies their own fleets with their own specifications and regulations on cargo size and shape. By having a large transit station, some form of normalisation is likely to be necessary.
- Trade Fleet reassignment. As a one-time possibility, we could allow the reassignment of a world's trade fleet to their trade fleet slot on the trade hub for a fee. This would allow a quicker start than building a new fleet on the fleet slot. See also the technology idea below.
Assigning a Trade Fleet
In the current rules, it is a bit unclear if you can reassign a trade fleet to another Open market Zone. Furthermore, with the advent of the use of the Trade Hub, having multiple smaller fleets will become less and less attractive. This will continue up to the point that worlds might want to merge several of their trade fleets into a larger fleet. In fact, if everyone uses the Trade Hub you only need to maintain 2 fleets for trade purposes: one outbound and one inbound fleet.
The merging or retiring of fleets is not possible at the moment. One or two new technologies could be created to allow for the merging, splitting, and rebalancing of fleets. This could also involve the ability to reassign a trade fleet to another trade fleet slot under your control (such as an outpost, settlement, or the Trade Hub).
Elmer » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:18 pm
I think that either adding or moving costs to factions is a good idea to represent that they have to adjust their fleets to the standardized trade containers and such.
Right now, I think that the costs don't have to exceed the outpost costs. Simply because the epicnes of the trade hubs does not come from the hubs, but from the bozzy spine. This tech makes more use out of the bozzy spine. Of course, the fact that you can trade with all factions via a single tradefleet is very powerful, but already covered in many ways within the rules. For example we could all lay a trade fleet to the IO protocol, the IO grants every faction a single zone in their system for an open market, and then we have the same thing without any tech or anything (or using the outpost/ settlement techs of course).
So making this tech brings up the following trade-off: Do we want complicated political hussle with little costs involved, or a simple way out which is only expensive?
Right now, I think that the costs don't have to exceed the outpost costs. Simply because the epicnes of the trade hubs does not come from the hubs, but from the bozzy spine. This tech makes more use out of the bozzy spine. Of course, the fact that you can trade with all factions via a single tradefleet is very powerful, but already covered in many ways within the rules. For example we could all lay a trade fleet to the IO protocol, the IO grants every faction a single zone in their system for an open market, and then we have the same thing without any tech or anything (or using the outpost/ settlement techs of course).
So making this tech brings up the following trade-off: Do we want complicated political hussle with little costs involved, or a simple way out which is only expensive?
Brend » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:37 pm
Elmer wrote:So making this tech brings up the following trade-off: Do we want complicated political hussle with little costs involved, or a simple way out which is only expensive?
Could you elaborate and clarify how you end up with this dichotomy?
Elmer » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:02 pm
In hindsight: This tech replaces the original idea of using an outpost as trade hub. So what I should have said is: Using this tech... instead of Making this tech... :)
Does this explain your question?
Does this explain your question?
Brend » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:14 pm
No. I do not understand how you end up at the two ends of the spectrum. How did you come to the conclusion that one of the options has 'little cost involved' while the other is 'expensive'? How is one a 'political hussle' and the either 'simple'?
For that matter, which of the two options is 'simple and expensive' according to you? As I see it both options require politicking (one to get the Union to pass laws to reduce the costs of operating ON the Bozzy Spine, the other to get the senate to spend 80k on this project to open up trade).
For that matter, which of the two options is 'simple and expensive' according to you? As I see it both options require politicking (one to get the Union to pass laws to reduce the costs of operating ON the Bozzy Spine, the other to get the senate to spend 80k
on this project to open up trade).
Brend » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:27 pm
As it stands, Elmer has proposed to increase costs at the 'users of the trade hub' side. @Elmer: Do you have a suggestions on the size of the fee? @Chriz: Maybe you could propose an amount?
@All: Does anyone else have remarks or questions about this project?
@All: Does anyone else have remarks or questions about this project?
Elmer » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:48 pm
Sorry, at this moment I don't have. I would love to make suggestions, but I currently am unable to make the necessary time to do so :(
Gerben » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:36 pm
I've done some further thinking on this subject. Will post tomorrow..
Mercury » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:33 pm
-
Mercury - Storyteller
Two main points I note about this.
First off, this thing is almost ridiculously good in terms of what it offers. I understand that it works from a rules perspective, but we should also consider that it effectively eliminates transportation as a factor in the game, to the point where constructing this is effectively a rule change. The trade hub will eliminate the need for open market zones (since a world already supports two fleets by default), and makes various technologies and upgrades obsolete.
Secondly, it seems to me like having a singular trade hub is both unsafe from a political point of view, and unrealistic from an economic perspective. I mean, if I send packages to Germany, they don't first get transported to an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean because that happens to be the trade hub (even if that might make more sense when shipping to the US).
I don't mean to shoot down this idea, I just think that these two issues need to be considered and hopefully addressed.
First off, this thing is almost ridiculously good in terms of what it offers. I understand that it works from a rules perspective, but we should also consider that it effectively eliminates transportation as a factor in the game, to the point where constructing this is effectively a rule change. The trade hub will eliminate the need for open market zones (since a world already supports two fleets by default), and makes various technologies and upgrades obsolete.
Secondly, it seems to me like having a singular trade hub is both unsafe from a political point of view, and unrealistic from an economic perspective. I mean, if I send packages to Germany, they don't first get transported to an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean because that happens to be the trade hub (even if that might make more sense when shipping to the US).
I don't mean to shoot down this idea, I just think that these two issues need to be considered and hopefully addressed.
Brend » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:22 am
After some thinking, I have to agree with both points.
If this were the real world, the trade hub would indeed obsolote a large swath of outdated equipment and technologies; I think I forget that there are other stakes when designing this project. Chriz idea of using an outpost with 10 open market zones sounded so utterly useful that I forget there were other stakes to consider.
I have a vague idea on how to address the first concern. I don't think it resolves the concern, but there might be a way to make it sufficiently different from normal shipping to make it viable without wiping out normal fleets.
Let's say for now that the current method of shipping stuff around is based on ships moving goods from A to B. These goods are packaged in a myriad of ways, and are shipped based on an agreement between two factions (usually the ones living in A and B). A Trade Hub like this would require immensely expensive machinery to move this utterly ridiculous amount of goods from one fleet to the next. It would be like playing tetris while using both square and triangle building blocks.
Instead of behaving like a generic transfer station, we might look into a trade hub that is more like a standardized bulk goods terminal. This would require standardized shipping units that can only move a specific good, but can do so at higher efficiency. So, it would not be used for shipping a quick trade from A to B, but for example to distribute amounts nearer to 20000
from the main producers to the main consumers.
Unfortunately, this would still make normal trade fleets obsolete unless there are constraints on the unit minimum (like shipping at least 2000 of something)...
(I'm also thinking it might be good to somehow pull a rework of the Corporate Logistics tree into this, that tech is useless as can be seen from its non-use).
If this were the real world, the trade hub would indeed obsolote a large swath of outdated equipment and technologies; I think I forget that there are other stakes when designing this project. Chriz idea of using an outpost with 10 open market zones sounded so utterly useful that I forget there were other stakes to consider.
I have a vague idea on how to address the first concern. I don't think it resolves the concern, but there might be a way to make it sufficiently different from normal shipping to make it viable without wiping out normal fleets.
Let's say for now that the current method of shipping stuff around is based on ships moving goods from A to B. These goods are packaged in a myriad of ways, and are shipped based on an agreement between two factions (usually the ones living in A and B). A Trade Hub like this would require immensely expensive machinery to move this utterly ridiculous amount of goods from one fleet to the next. It would be like playing tetris while using both square and triangle building blocks.
Instead of behaving like a generic transfer station, we might look into a trade hub that is more like a standardized bulk goods terminal. This would require standardized shipping units that can only move a specific good, but can do so at higher efficiency. So, it would not be used for shipping a quick trade from A to B, but for example to distribute amounts nearer to 20000
from the main producers to the main consumers.Unfortunately, this would still make normal trade fleets obsolete unless there are constraints on the unit minimum (like shipping at least 2000 of something)...
(I'm also thinking it might be good to somehow pull a rework of the Corporate Logistics tree into this, that tech is useless as can be seen from its non-use).
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