Fwurg

[Stuiter]

I have added a new skill named Teacher Skill.
I think should be trained only.

I do not think many people will take this skill but it fits by my character well.

[Brend]

I disagree that it should be trained only.

Though teaching things to peple is easier if you know how, teaching people things can be done without formal training. And requiring characters to take this skill or be unable to teach groups of people is very limiting (think about Ajava teaching ligthsaber combat, er Nathan teaching slicing...)

(Also: Next time, do the thread first, and when we are in agreement, then make the page itself... I have put a work in progress on the page to prevent it from showing up in builders).

[Mercury]

I like the new skill, definitely one we should have. Teaching is a noble profession and there is a big difference between someone explaining X and someone using pedagogic techniques to teach something. I think there is more to the discussion on trained vs untrained depending on how the skill is intended, so I'd like to hear what exactly it should entail.

I do want to add that learning and teaching are mirror verbs in English that cannot be swapped around. Unlike in Dutch, where you can learn something to someone, in English, you can only teach something to someone and (hopefully) they learn as a result.

[Brend]

Since no reply from Stuiter has been seen here for nearly a week, I propose that we give it another week. If at the end of that week no progress has been made, the skill will be denied for now. (Especially since the skill was just added to the wiki without any effort on Stuiter's part to actually put it up for discussion...)

Elmer: I would like to add a point of principle. While a skill has not officially been approved yet, the skill can not be used. Otherwise people can just add things to the wiki, and use them while the discussion is ongoing.

[Stuiter]

I agree with mercury.
There is a difference between people learning from someone one-on-one and having a big group of students.
I am not against learning from your peers, but with teaching I envision doing it for a big group of people.
Therefor this skill it trained only.

((OOC: Like I said I am not that so active. Just denying it is a bit to much, just wait.
I was not planning to use it before it was approved, so do not worry.))

[Elmer]

no, denying is not a bit too much. You cannot make a skill, take it, and then ask for permission. That is not how this system works. In that case I can also just implement: combat manoeuvres, more skills, force powers, techs, zones, projects and other stuff, and just take it.

For the record: Denied here means (for me) that we stop looking at it and that you still cannot use the skill. Not that the skill will never be implemented again ever.


About the skill:
I don't think it is trained only: I believe everybody can stand in front of a class and teach them. As long you know what your talking about and the class is not a bunch of rebels. Thus having the teaching skill makes it a lot more efficient, but somebody with no teaching skill can still teach.

[Stuiter]

I already got the point for not doing this again.

The problem Elmer is that mostly they are a bunch of rebels otherwise why would you need a degree to teach.
For being a teacher you need the right qualifications and by taking this skill I have.
Otherwise everybody could say they can do something by just saying it and not invest in it and take the benefit.

[Brend]

Otherwise everybody could say they can do something by just saying it and not invest in it and take the benefit.

For most 'non adventurer' skills I would not have a problem with this. For example: Cutting hair can be done without training, but with training you can actually make money with it. We don't need to introduce a 'Barber' skill.

FWURGs skill system isn't a restrictive system, it offers you options you can use. It's not "everything is prohibited until there is a skill for it"...

[Stuiter]

I want T'sal to do it professionally. So therefor I want to spend a skill point on it.
I would like to here Mercuries opinions so we can hopefully come to a conclusion.

[Brend]

But my original point here wan't "Allow or not allow", my original point was "Trained only?!"

I still propose that the skill should not be trained only, as it seems that this skill is actually intended as 'Teacher for kindergarten', since Stuiter said:

The problem Elmer is that mostly they are a bunch of rebels otherwise why would you need a degree to teach.
For being a teacher you need the right qualifications and by taking this skill I have.

Teaching groups of motivated people (i.e., teaching a group of Jedi a new skill) shouldn't be restricted to those having the Teaching skill.

[Mercury]

I have thought about this carefully and I came to a wider realization.

Teaching is a profession. There are many other professions as well, such as carpenter, medical doctor, pilot, etc.

With each of these professions, we presume that regular people are capable of doing basic tasks within the profession. For example, we expect every Jedi to be able to craft a simple table out of a plate of wood and some wooden beams using a hand-saw, a hammer and some nails. Its not complicated. Likewise, we expect every Jedi to be capable of setting a splint or bandaging a wound, and to be able to pilot a regular ship.

However, each of these professions also has abilities normal folk do not have. A carpenter may be able to craft a 17th century sailing ship using lumber, a medical doctor is able to do complicated surgery and a pilot might be able to land a capital ship on the surface of a planet, which is far too complex for a regular person to do.

We have no carpenter skill, but we do have historical engineer. Historical engineering is a trained only skill that does many similar things. We have a medicine skill, which is mirrored by a first aid skill. First aid is allowed untrained, but medicine is not. We have a pilot skill, and everyone is allowed to use it untrained, but I would probably not allow an unskilled individual to land a Star Destroyer single-handedly.

Looking at this pattern, I notice two things: first of all, sometimes skills are divided into an 'untrained' and 'trained' skill, as with Medicine and First Aid. Note that these do not cover exactly the same thing.

Secondly, not every skill has a proper 'trained' and 'untrained' variation. Both solely trained (historical engineer) and solely untrained (pilot) skills exist.

I think 'teacher' may follow these lines as well.

If you know a specific trick or ability, any Jedi should be able to teach this. Standing in front of a willing class room and explaining how to perform a Heimlich counter-manoeuvre is not conceptually difficult. Nor is letting a dozen or so students practice it while you watch and give pointers. This should be allowed untrained.

However, this is not the same as guiding the development of a youngling to turn them into a Jedi, for example, nor is it the same as developing a training program to teach a hundred-thousand rebels how to form an effective resistance.

The difference between the two is somewhat difficult to put into strictly defined terms, but in general in the first case you are teaching someone a trick. Education is likely to take a few days at most after which the person knows the trick.

In the second case, you need to modify more than muscle memory - you need to teach the student a completely new way of thinking. A Jedi Youngling doesn't just have to be able to swing a lightsaber without cutting off their arms, they have to be able to think like a Jedi, settle into training routine, learn how to meditate. Its an entire suite of tricks that together make them into a Jedi.

Likewise, guerilla warfare is not a skill you can just explain and be done with - it requires a lot of training, changing the way you live and look at warfare. Moreover, my example is complicated by the fact you cannot individually teach a hundred thousand people - you can't just explain. You need to make educational material that stands on itself without requiring your guidance, and that people can learn.

I imagine what Stuiter is looking for is the latter rather than the former. The name 'teacher' is unfortunate however, as it implies that you cannot be a teacher without having the skill. It implies the simple usage is not allowed.

Therefore I would propose renaming the skill and making a note this is about the complex usage, not the simple one (which I imagine is not even a skill, as with the carpentry thing). I would suggest Pedagogy, which is "the art, science, or profession of teaching".

Thoughts?

[Brend]

I like the symmetry you found between the trained/untrained skill pairs.

I also like the idea of having a trained only Pedagogy skill, as that clearly represents being able to develop teaching methods and materials beyond simply explaining and showing the thing first-hand.

[Gerben]

excellent suggestion :P

[Chriz]

I agree with the separation that Mercury made and I think Pedagogy is fitting here.

[Elmer]

Yes, I think this is an excellent explanation and suggestion.

I like to add that, in line with Mercury's story, mechanical engineering is untrained, and historical engineer is trained only. Just like weapons engineer and explosives/lightsaber construction, programming and slicing.

Therefore I approve of the pedagogy skill :)

[Stuiter]

I it is not just pedagogy but didactic of the subject to make them understand new concepts.
You could also go with Tutor that sounds more restricting.

[Brend]

I think that what you are trying to say does not translate well...

di·dac·tic

/dīˈdaktik/
adjective

1. intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.
   "a didactic novel that set out to expose social injustice"
   synonyms: instructive, instructional, educational, educative, informative, informational, edifying, improving, preceptive, pedagogic, moralistic More

Whereas:

ped·a·go·gy

/ˈpedəˌgäjē,-ˌgägē/
noun

1. the method and practice of teaching, esp. as an academic subject or theoretical concept.
   "the relationship between applied linguistics and language pedagogy"

'Pedagogy is the science and art of education, specifically instructional theory', which I think is what you want? (Of course, you will also need to know about the subject matter itself, but it seems to me that you want to be a professional teacher, in which case you would need to study Pedagogy.

'Tutor' is a job, while 'Pedagogy' is the science and skill you need to be extremely good at it.

[Brend]

SInce there has been no reply for another week, I propose that we add the Pedagogy (trained only) skill.

This allows Stuiter to develop T'Sal in the direction she wants, and the proposal was met with general enthusiasm.

If no one objects, I will update the wiki in the coming weeked (2013-12-06).

[Brend]

I have updated the wiki:

• Moved the Teacher page to Pedagogy
• Updated the skills description and added a note on the complexity of the skill.
• Updated T'Sal's learned skill to Pedagogy

If anyone else can check the skill page (especially the note) that would be greatly appreciated.

[Mercury]

Works for me. I would like Stuiters opinion on the whole thing still, but this works, I think?

[Stuiter]

I cannot help that it does not translate, so this will do.