Fwurg

[Senator Harek]

"Dear Senator Nehket

Here is a overview of the proposal and their articles.

Overview Translation proposal articles Sentient rigths.

Section 1 Basic rights
1a The right to life = Article 2
1b The right to be save from violence and abuse= Article 3, 6,7
1c Everybody is equal= Article X1, no discrimation Article 5
1d Everybody is free to travel = Article 11
1e Everybody has freedom of thoughts/religion = Article 15
1f Everybody is free express their opinion = Article 16
1g Everybody has the right to education = Article 22
1h The right to work and have rest = Article 19, 20
1i Everybody has right to his basics needs (race dependable) = Article 21

Section 2 Cultural freedom
2a The right to be free, no slavery= Article X2
2b You are free to marry another and start a family = left to Faction
2c The right to have property = Article 14
2d Everybody is free to participate in politics = left to Faction
2e Everybody has the right to development them-selve = Article 25

Section 3 Legal matter
3a Everyone is recognized before the law. = Article 4
3b Everyone has the right to below to a faction = Article 13
3c Everyone can go and visit public hearings = Article 8
3d Everyone charged with an penal offence is innocent until proven guilty by law. = Article 9
3e Everyone has the right to privacy = Article 10
3f Everyone has the right to ask for asylum of another faction = Article 12
3g Creators have rights to the credit of their creation = Article 23

Section 4 Special cases
- Depending on race some of the rights might be applied in a different way. = Article 27

[Senator Harek]

It is very quit in the Senate. After the election the Cabinet has changed and they seemed to be busy with other things. But Senator Harek is determined to continue.

"I hope that with the new cabinet installed we can continue this dicussion or can I assume you to agree with this draft?"

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"We stay with our last remark, we believe that the proposal as displayed now too much interferes with the internal structures and cultures of the Union members and see more benefit in the IO sandbox approach."

[Nehket Aeka]

"My apologies for my recent silence, senator Harek.

You will have to forgive me for my recent absence, my additional duties as chancellor forced me direct my attention elsewhere.

I do wish to give this discussion the full attention it deserves, and will set aside some time in the coming week to properly read through your lengthy proposal and formulate a fitting response."

[Nehket Aeka]

A few days later, after a recess in the discussion, the chancellor took the floor.

"My fellow senators,

After carefully reading the proposal by senator Harek in full, and keeping in memory the previous arguments in this discussion, I am led to the conclusion that this discussion is about two distinct topics.

The first, a discussion on sentient rights and what position a declaration of sentient rights has as a legal basis. The second, a discussion on the matter of slavery. These two topics certainly seem related, and as such at first it is appears logical to discuss them in relation to each other.

After reading through the whole of the proposal, I have come to the conclusion that it is better to discuss these two topics separately. If we do not, the matter of slavery will dominate this discussion and the declaration of sentient rights will suffer for it and become a proxy declaration purely for the opinions on slavery. The sentient rights declaration deserves better.

I will open a separate discussion to seek a resolution to the matter of slavery, and suggest that we leave the matter of slavery in the middle while we focus on the other points of the declaration."

((OOC: New discussion [ Senate ] Compromising on the matter of slavery))

[Nehket Aeka]

"Senator Harek, I am very much interested in continuing the discussion on sentient rights. As such, I would like to ask you what your intended meaning of article 11 (1) is.

Do you mean that everyone covered under the declaration has the right to go anywhere within the Union and put up residence on any Union world?

If so, do you feel that that would that apply to individuals from outside the Union as well to allow them to immigrate freely and put up residence on any Union world?"

[Senator Harek]

"Dear Chancellor Nehket Aeka, it is indeed my idea that sentients can move and residence anywhere within the Union.

Of course this has to be legally restricted as otherwise pirates from outside would control our space.

Therefor, this right should be applied on Union citizenship. For immigrants limitation will be applied and in time they could earn Union citizenship and move freely."

[Nehket Aeka]

"As I understand it, your world bases its leadership on democratic principles, does it not?

Your world has 4.12 billion inhabitants. How would you feel if 5 billion veolians decided to migrate to your world... I agree that it is unlikely, but given your proposal as I understand it you want to at least provide this opportunity, or am I mistaken?"

[Senator Harek]

"We are talking here about natural migration not mass migration where billion of inhabitants are moved. For the new inhabitants there should the place and infrastructure for them to stay. There is a limit to how much a world can handle."

[Nehket Aeka]

"So, if it is a mass migration, those in the migration suddenly lose their sentient right to immigrate freely and put up residence on any Union world? That sounds a bit arbitrary, senator Harek.

I understand that careful thought has been put into this draft, and I am deliberately seeking the edge case of this clause. But right now, it sounds liek you are saying that the sentient rights only apply to individuals if they are not applied to your detriment. Or are you saying that the sentient rights only apply as long as no situation occurs that was not taken into account during the original drafting? Because both of these possibilities exist in the real world.

For the sake of discussion, so as to allow everyone to get a better understanding of the draft, let us assume that this mass migration is going to happen. Is it, or is it not within every sentients right to take part of it and migrate to the My'enru system?"

[Senator Harek]

"Yes, this is in their right, but the problem with mass migration is that the receiving world needs a big infrastructure to handle this. Otherwise the people coming will be stacked like cattle which undesirable. The Veolian Commonwealth can handle 1 billion Twi'lek but for the Hiocan Society this is almost a third of their total population. There is not enough capacity in the My'enru system and the population composition is distorted.

There need to be addition rules and regulations for a good implementation. Each faction can best determine for themselves how many people they can handle. Together I think we will be able to work out a good policy."

[Nehket Aeka]

"I agree with you that such a large movement of population comes with certain intrinsic problems. Yet exploring such hypotheticals serve to increase insight into the proposed rights."

"For my next question, I would like to ask you how the unconditional right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution as mentioned in article 12 of your proposal would exist next to extradition treaties. Could you elaborate on how extradition treaties and the proposed right to seek and enjoy asylum can exist in the same universe? Or is your idea to declare all such treaties null and void?"

[Senator Harek]

"Asylum need to be granted and not something everybody can get for free. The request is carefully looked at being accepted. Criminals shall not be granted asylum, unless they have a very good case pledging for them. I do not see a problem."

[Nehket Aeka]

"That is indeed satisfactory, though I doubt that criminals will announce themselves as such when requesting asylum."

"With those situations sorted out, there are some other articles that might be cause for concern. For example, article 20 states: "Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay." Could you explain why these rights include directives on internal affairs such as labour law, and the implied significance of holidays? What is the underlying reason that it is a right to have periodice holidays? Is that not something to be determined between employer and employee?"

[Senator Harek]

"A faction needs to take good care of it's citizens. People need to work to earn money for housing, eating etc. To work efficiently people need to rest. A holiday is an entrance period of rest a employer give to it's employer so that once they return they can work more efficiently. Therefor they pay the employer during this absence. In the labour law the minimal right for rest and leisure are set, this to prevent explode and letting employees only work. I understand that each faction has their own labour system. I think it is good to have a Union wide laws which set the minimal right people have. But as you say the labour system differ and therefor economic expert from various would need to discuss this matter to come to a compromise."

[Nehket Aeka]

"I think this brings us to a very relevant point in this discussion.

Every time this declaration is brought up, you state it as if it is a proposal for a Union wide law. I think that, before we continue the discussion on the content of the declaration, we should determine what kind of legal impact it should have.

Senator Harek proposes to make the whole declaration into law, thereby making it a binding agreement to which all Union worlds are held. This gives the proposal the full enforcement by the Ministry of Justice, allowing the ministry to pursue cases against worlds they deem are violating the sentient rights of citizens of the Union.

I have proposed to put the proposal, when finalized, into effect as a treaty with reservations. This puts forward the declaration in the form of a lofty goal to strive for, allowing each world to determine whether they subscribe to the final declaration, and to register reservations they have with certain articles.

Do other delegations wish to propose different legal forms, or speak their support for a presented legal form?"

[Nehket Aeka]

"Since no one has come forward with alternative legal possibilities, let the record show that a decision needs to be made between enacting the declaration as binding law or as a treaty with reservations."

"We will have a two week period for further comments, remarks or objections to be made known."

"If no further discussion is deemed necessary by the assembled delegations I suggest that the primary mover for this proposal drafts the final legal document so that a vote can be opened on it's implementation."

She then looks at senator Harek, "Senator, can you have the final proposal ready in three weeks?"

[Senator Harek]

"If there are still a point you want to discusse, this is your chance.

I shall made two versions of this sentient rights declaration; a law and a treaty with reservations.

I hope that the we can improve our collaboration by creating Union wide laws."

((OOC: I need some help, as I am not good in legal language. I will starts an OC thread for it.))

[Senator Shahkra of the Federal Republic of Bisidn]

"The article states that 'Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law,' as stated in article four. But about which law are we speaking? Nowhere is made any notion about which law it is all about.

It also states in article 13 that everyone has the right to a nationality. Why is it a sentient right to have a nationality? A nationality is a property resulting from local laws and culture. It has nothing to do with being sentient.

Also what when the nationality of a person changes, like what happened when the STF changed to the ACA? In such cases will these individuals stay their old but no longer existing nationality, or will their nationality forcefully be changed?"

[Nehket Aeka]

"Fellow Senators,

I have the sad duty to inform you that I will not be able to move forward with this matter in my current term as chancellor.

Senator Shahkra has raised several relevant points for discussion, and I feel that further elaboration is necessary before we can put the matter to a vote. Furthermore, I have yet to receive the proposal from Senator Harek. With the end of my term nearing, I do not think that opening a hasty vote on the matter is wise.

I am confident that senator Odakim V will find a way to resolve this matter during his term in office."

[Senator Harek]

"Dear Senators, my apologies about the late reply. The announcement of Senator Salixa of the Silver Forests of Remunzia has quite shocked us. We wanted to increase collaboration and understanding within the Union, but it seems we have caused the opposite. This has caused quite an intense debate within the Hiocan Society and it seems the promised proposal has gotten to the background.

We do not want to cause more dispute within the Senate as the Daryans will also be leaving the Union. Therefor we will propose that the sentient rights declaration will become a treaty. Each faction can then choice to sign it completely, partial or not at all.
The addition of Union and faction law was made and the rest is the same. All points can be discussed. Please let me know if you are interested.

Declaration of sentients rights

Article 1.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or intergalactic status of the faction or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 2.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 3.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 4.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the Union and faction law.

Article 5.
Before the law all without any discrimination are protected. All are entitled to protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 7.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 8.
Everyone is entitled in full fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 9.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or intergalactic law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 10.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each faction.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any world, including his own, and to return to his world.

Article 12.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other factions asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the Union.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 15.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 16.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 18.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and intergalactic co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each faction, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 19.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 20.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, death, disability, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Parenthood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 22.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the sentients personality and to the strengthening of respect for sentients rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all worlds, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the Union for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children. When the child is old enough it can choose for themselves.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 24.
Everyone is entitled to a social and intergalactic order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the Union.

Article 26.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any Faction, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Article 27.
Depending on race some of the rights might be applied in a different way. The following acceptations are in order:

[Chancellor Dewa Lanadi]

"The Veolian Commonwealth takes issue with many of the proposed articles or subarticles in this treaty.

I could present an extensive list of the articles we object to, and the reason why we do, but suffice it to say that we will not support the treaty in its current form, or any derivative form. That is, unless the proposed treaty is structurally and signifcantly revised, the Veolian Commonwealth will not take part in this treaty."

Dewa Lanadi looks around the senate before continuing.

"We have been presented with an enormous proposal written entirely from a Hiocan point of view. It is commendable that senator Harek has taken it upon himself to redraft this proposal by removing articles that are deemed unacceptable to some. Yet, this way does not lead to a Declaration of Sentient Rights, this is the creation of a Declaration of Collected Rights no World Objects To.

Even if there are articles to which we agree, I see no merit in creating a patchwork treaty with a few articles to please each union world.

If you truly want to unite all Union worlds and draft an actual Treaty for the Declaration of Sentient Rights, this process should involve all worlds equally and from the beginnings.

I suggest to start again, with a blank slate. Invite all Union world to send a representative to discuss the core sentient rights we can all agree on, and have them draft a first small proposal together.

This way, instead of objecting to many of the proposed articles, we can constructively collaborate to draft a few basic rights that are seen as common in the whole Union. From these core rights, we can build on mutual respect and cultural insight to improve the treaty in meaningful steps.

The Veolian Commonwealth looks forward to participating in this process."

She looks around the assembled representatives in the senate again.

I think I do not speak for the Veolian Commonwealth alone."

[Senator Danar Tassar]

"We of the Teprogrenaian Consensus support the proposal from Senator Dewa Lanadi to start with a blank slate and create a draft in a collaborate manner."

[Chancellor Dewa Lanadi]

((OOC: (:ip) has been handed out. I will consider this discussion closed. New discussion on this topic can be done in a new senate discussion.))