Fwurg

[Dragonmaster352]

Ok I came up with this a while back and it was noted I should use the same system as Hyperspace Arrival Salvo.

So here it is:

Unlocking tech:

Tracking Disruption

Advanced disruption and stealth technologies allow small vehicles to block pinpoint tracking commonly used by point defence systems.

Allows for the Stealth Crafts/Tracking upgrade for military fleets.

Cost: 2000 and 5 .

Upgrade:

Stealth Crafts/Tracking

Stealth fighters and boarding craft are added to a military fleet that are extremely hard to track for point defence systems and the fleets own point defence is fitted with sensors that can compensate for this.

Adds +1 to the fleets inner attack and defence ring. Additionally if an army is attached to the fleet it unlocks the Boarding Tactics special manoeuvre.

Cost: 1000 , 1000 , (125* current number of upgrades) and 5 .

Special Manoeuvre:

Boarding Tactics

Using special boarding craft an army boards enemy ships and tries to destroy or disable them from within. As a result your fleet gets a +1 on the inner attack ring, this option can be used multiple times during combat. Alternatively if the opposing fleet uses Boarding Tactics first you get a +1 on the inner defence ring for the duration of combat, this option can only be used once and Boarding Tactics can't be used offensively for the duration of combat.

Restriction: This special manoeuvre can only be used when an army is attached to the fleet, bonus's do not stack when multiple armies are attached to the fleet nor does it allow the use of more than one of the options.

Thoughts? Suggestions? anything else?

[Elmer]

I like the idea, and I think that the approach of a little bonus and a special manoeuvre is fine. I was thinking for a moment why not making it a formation, but this isn't an formation. I think the restrictions of when and how often you can board are a bit hard. And maybe it should be defined for what formation this special manoeuvre is.

Though the costs are a little cheap I think. The research cost is fine I think, but the upgrade cost might be to low.
I calculated the following:
normal upgrade: 1400+(225*current number of upgrades) calculated by: [500+200*4.5 + 50*4.5]
Proposed tech: 1500+(125*current number of upgrades) calculated by: [2*1000*0.75 + 50*4.5]

So in perspective this tech is very cheap when you got multiple upgrades on your fleet. As you get both an upgrade and a manoeuvre for less money than a normal upgrade. And with an army you get even an half upgrade for free.

So I think the upgrade costs should be: 2100+(225*current number of upgrades) . Or with goods: 1000 +1000 +600 + (225 *current number of upgrades). Though I haven't taken the restrictions of the tech into account what can make the tech cheaper again.

[Dragonmaster352]

I didn't do any calculations on the upgrade so I'm fine with what you propose for the upgrade cost if it's deemed necessary.

And your right I forgot to specify the formation its the standard formation.

[Brend]

I haven't done any kind of calculations yet, but I would like to know: why roll offense and defense into a single technology and project?

[Elmer]

Brend has a point.

We can make this two technologies each half the price of the proposed tech, one offensive and one defensive. The manoeuvre can be split up as well into two clearly separated parts. Then we get a nice tech tree looking like:

Tracking disruption
|
\/
tech 1. Stealth fighters: giving +1 on inner ring attack + offensive boarding tactics
tech 2. Tracking radar: giving +1 on inner ring defence + defensive boarding tacticts
|
\/
Boarding tactics:
offensive part: with an army, you may board. Either take over their ships or destroy them-> this manoeuvre gives +1 on inner ring while executed
defensive part: Your army fights the boarding party, preventing them from doing harm -> When you are getting boarded, this manoeuvre gives you a +1 on inner defence while executing this manoeuvre.

You cannot both apply the offensive and defensive part of the manoeuvre in the same turn.

[Brend]

I'm a bit doubtful as to the giving of +1 inner attack & +1 inner defence as if it were a normal upgrade.

We already have normal upgrades for that, and this seems to be two things rolled up in one:

• a cool idea with regards to boarding and the use of armies on fleets,
• and a normal upgrade that goes past the upgrade limit.

I like the first part, but I don't really see why the second part is necessary. After all, it's just a locked down version of a normal upgrade (that gives +1 offence & +1 defence)...

Is there a specific reason you want that static combat boost above and beyond what normal upgrades already give? (Other than 'I want to be able to upgrade my inner rings one extra time'?)

[Dragonmaster352]

Ok you definitely have a point.

Let's say we throw the permanent stats bonus out, then what would you say?

And what do you think of Elmer's idea?

[Brend]

I like the idea of splitting the works. I would even go as far as saying that it provides two different manoeuvres, with each manoeuvre taking up the attached army (to prevent them from being executed together, but still allowing further work to allow for example two armies on a fleet...)

[Stuiter]

I would like say stat currently only military fleets are available no army has been defined so you cannot use this strategy.
I am thinking of needing vehicles , food and to build army.

[Brend]

I would like say stat currently only military fleets are available no army has been defined so you cannot use this strategy.
I am thinking of needing vehicles , food and to build army.

Armies.

[Elmer]

Well, if we do not apply a simple bonus point on your fleet, let's see what our other options are:

Take over fleet

Once the boarded army is boarded, their fleet will be your fleet once they are incapacitated. You are allowed to have the fleet for X turns (3 or so) without a home port. After that you either need to discard the fleet or have a home port assigned to them. Your army must be assigned to the fleet for these X turns, and if the boarded fleet is destroyed, the army dies with it.

another idea:

Take over a few ships

Your army boards and takes over the special and valuable ships of the enemy fleet. The enemy fleet suffers a penalty on their fleet of Y. (Maybe 1 point on their and . For the duration of the boarded army. If the enemy fleet is destroyed, you confiscate the boarded ships, giving your fleet either a permanent bonus dot, or a special thingy. (Like scanning vessels, bombardment. hyperspace arival salvo, or plain )

Also possible:

Disabling the enemy jump mechanism

Your boarded army causes a lot of trouble for the enemy ships to maintain control, if you succesfully board the enemy (for X turns maybe), they cannot jump away (for Z turns) as their crew and controls are disabled by your army. If you destroy the enemy fleet while your army is boarded, you loose your army.

or else:

Do more damage

Your army places special beacons in the enemy ships, painting vulnerable spots on the enemy fleets. This way your fleet knows where to attack more effectively, causing your attacks to do more damage:
You only have to win on 2 rings to win, or you do 2 dots damage on the enemy fleet effectiveness level if you defeat them on three dots.

Another thing I came up with:

Prohibit the enemy to switch formation

Because your boarded army is such a hindrance in the enemy fleet, they can take fewer actions than you can. Prohibiting them to switch formations as long you have them boarded.

last thing I came up with:

Prohibit the enemy to take offensive manoeuvres

Because you boarded their ships with your army, the enemy fleet cannot take any offensive manoeuvres with their fleet while you have them boarded.

All of the ideas above are of course able to be transformed in possible way. These are just ideas to explore other options for the boarding armies.

So basically the following list are possibilities I have came up with what armies can do:

• Take over the enemy fleet, making it yours at the end of battle
• Take over some ships at the end of the battle, transferring them to your fleet
• Create penalties for the enemy fleet like
  
  • Penalties in dots
  • Penalties in their combat manoeuvres
  • Penalties in generic actions like escaping
  • Penalties in actions, like switching formations
• Loosing your army if you destroy the enemy fleet while they are boarded
• Making your attacks stronger, so basically letting the boarded army work as an attack multiplier.

I think the bonus dots of your army will still apply, whether you board or not.

The defensive part will probably cancel out the offensive boarding tactic I think.

[Brend]

To be honest, most of those things are very powerful.

Wouldn't it be better to look toward the gaining of an advantage action?

Maybe something like: "If you use Boarding Tactics, and bring the opponent off balance by overcoming the inner and middle ring, you gain an offensive advantage."

The manoeuvre wouldn't give any further bonuses (of course the normal army bonus already applies). This is roughly the same powerlevel as the Hyperspace Arrival Salvo: it has a strong limitation because it requires that you assign an army and it offers a you a chance to double up an action in the form of allowing you to DCA and possibly get an advantage action in a single turn.

(Note: The fleet manoeuvres are akin to the Jedi manoeuvres, except that the Jedi versions give permanent boosts more easily. Furthermore, the jedi manoeuvres are embedded in the philosophical base of the combat style, while the fleet manoeuvres stem from a technological base, and do not usually give permanent boosts as the normal fleet upgrades already handle that.)

[Brend]

I'm not spending more effort here until I hear back from the original poster.

[Dragonmaster352]

Forgot about this for a moment. (very busy last week)

I like the idea of an advantage action plus a DCA via a special manoeuvre that you suggested and would not be against replacing the extra dots with this idea.

I will work this out over easter.

[Dragonmaster352]

I have created a design http://www.fwurg.net/dokuwiki/user:dragonmaster352:design:boarding_tactics.

I know it looks horrible at the moment but I blame that on my lack of ICT skills.

Input please?

(In case it wasn't clear yet, Boarding Tactics requires an attached army.)

[Elmer]

I have taken a look at it: I say, drop the 'stealth craft' fluff. Simple boarding ships would do as well, heavily armoured and shielded boxes with magnetic clamps, needles which drill through the hull, ships that land in the docking bays etc.

With that, the build requirements can remove the and use just some tax, or , maybe a combination of and would be logical as well.


I believe that the boarding tactic is more suitable for the skirmish formation.

As last, I think the manoeuvre is a little strong now. I think it is better when you get no dots on your fleet, and that the manoeuvre also would not provide both an advantage action and a + . Only the advantage action is good enough I think.


I get the idea that you like to work with stealth ships, this is fine of course, but maybe this is better suited for another manoeuvre/ upgrade. Or you can use this as your fluff for your fleet.

[Dragonmaster352]

the +2 is only added when you use the manoeuvre and lasts only one round.

[Dragonmaster352]

After some thinking I removed the +1 next round. Not entirely sure how or why I put it in there, but it's a bit stupid.

[Brend]

I'll look at the proposal this thursday.

[Brend]

My notes:

• The fluff and name is cool, but very specific. I see how the fluff matches the prerequisite, but this still seems very 'locked in'.
• If you want to befuddle the enemies sensors, you might want to use Echani Sensor Echo Projectors instead as a prerequisite. Boarding vessels are small, and will usually not even have a hyperdrive to dampen. This also makes it easier to use the more generic 'Boarding Craft' name instead 'Stealth Craft', which allows every player to interpret this in their own way.
• The cost of the project is somehow related to the number of upgrades. This makes it so you really want to take this upgrade very early on. I propose a flat cost of 2000 instead of the current -cost formula.
• The manoeuvre is way overpowered as it is written right now. It gives two extra actions beyond the normal action you always get.

So, while I like the manoeuvre, I think that it shouldn't work the way it currently does. I propose the following:

Boarding Tactics

This is a special manoeuvre of Standard Formation. This manoeuvre is only available if the fleet is upgraded with the Stealth Craft Boarding Craft upgrade.

While an army is attached to the fleet, the fleets gains a +1 inner attack on top of the normal bonus from the army.

If you execute this manoeuvre, and beat the opposing fleet on the Inner ring and one other ring you gain an offensive advantage. This manoeuvre can be used once per combat per attached army.

This is still more powerful than the Hyperspace Arrival Salvo from the Barrage Formation. But that is offset by the higher costs per fleet, and the fact that it requires an attached army wich involves more work.

[Dragonmaster352]

I made a few adjustments. Using your suggestions.

I also tried to make things a bit more clear for the manoeuvre itself. The way I saw it it was a DCA and advantage action in one move, that apparently wasn't clear from the description.

[Brend]

You say it is a DCA and Advantage action in one move, but your wiki page says its a DCA+Advantage action in one move while still allowing another action (such as a DCA or an advantage action)!

[Dragonmaster352]

Fixed.

[Brend]

After some more thinking (and discussing with Chriz) we concluded that the manoeuvre isn't overpowered as it is written now. In fact, the Hyperspace Arrival Salvo might be a bit underpowered when compared to the Jedi combat manoeuvres (which form the mechanical basis for the fleet formation manoeuvres).

So, with the exception of the names (Stealth Craft -> Boarding Craft; for this manoeuvre I would call it what it is, and allow everyone to fluff it like they want it) I see no problem with this.


However, if you raise the cost of the upgrade to 1000 + 1000 + 1500 + 5 you could change the manoeuvre's text to:

Boarding Tactics

This is a special manoeuvre of Standard Formation. Requires the Stealth Craft Boarding Craft fleet upgrade and an attached army.

If used with an offensive DCA, this manoeuvre grants a +1 on the inner attack ring. If your DCA is succesful, and you bring the opposing fleet off balance by overcoming the inner ring, you gain an offensive advantage. You can have at most a single offensive advantage gained with Boarding Tactics at any time, as normal.

This removes the limitation that it can be used once per turn per army, and making it a nice boost on top of a DCA based on boarding-like actions. In exchange for always succeeding at a DCA balanced by 'once per combat', you now have a check-based DCA with an extra boost on the inner ring (giving you +3 dots in total), while still combined with the advantage action.

My proposal is slightly stronger than your current proposal, and is more in line with the power one can expect from a formation manoeuvre (if we see the formations as combat styles and the manoeuvres as, well, manoeuvres).

I am strongly in favour of having the manoeuvres be like their Jedi combat manoeuvre brethren, because it is easier to judge balance that way ^_^

[Elmer]

I am doubtful about the "and you bring the opposing fleet off balance by overcoming the inner ring, you gain an offensive advantage.". Because this manoeuvre is a finisher that way. You cannot get an advantage action from this manoeuvre if you do not already have the advantage. I like to see that you can use this manoeuvre to gain the advantage in battle, and not to increase your advantage.

After a brief discussion with Brend, the actual question is: when do we want to use the boarding tactics? In the beginning of the battle and use the boarding to gain an advantageous position, or more half way/near-the-end of the battle to use the manoeuvre as an multiplier over your position.


Another issue rose: with the current system fleets have no checks and therefore DCA's are a tricky issue.