Fwurg

[Stuiter]

Yesterday I talked to Elmer and Brend and I also shared some ideas I had about defensive technologies. Here is the general line I have in mind and I think we can together work them out ( I am not good in cost and names). I had the idea from the start when I build my system and I therefore would appreciate it when researching it you involve my faction.

Technologies

Name: Asteroid assault tactics
Description: With this technology you can build defense zones in an asteriod belt.
Prerequisite: Standard Template Construction
Cost: 1000 6

Name: Strategic defense system
Description: This tech allows you to upgrade your planetary defense zone
Prerequisite: Compacted Defence Facilities
Cost: 2000 5

Name: Improved defenses
Description: This tech gives another 3 dots to spend on your planetary defense zone
Prerequisite: Strategic defense system
Cost: 1000 (naturlife 500)

Name: Coordination assault tactics
Description: By aligning your defenses zone and coordinating them you combine their strength. You get +1 dot for each defense zone.
Prerequisite: Compacted Defence Facilities, 2 or more planetary defense zones in your system
Cost: 2000 5


Combat styles

Name: General system tactics
System combat style (shii-coo)
Description: This is a system combat style. You get a +2 dots on defense/offense on each ring you have planetary defense rone (hot/innerring, goldilock/middle and cold/outer). This bonus applies on all your worlds in the system.
Prerequisite:
Cost: ??

Name: System defense tactics
System combat style (soresu)
Description: This is a system combat style. You get a +3 dots on defense and +1 offense on each ring you have planetary defense rone (hot/innerring, goldilock/middle and cold/outer). This bonus applies on all your worlds in the system.
Prerequisite:
Cost: ??

Name: System attack tactics
System combat style (Ataru)
Description: This is a system combat style. You get a +3 dots on offense and +1 defense on each ring you have planetary defense rone (hot/innerring, goldilock/middle and cold/outer). This bonus applies on all your worlds in the system.
Prerequisite:
Cost: ??

I think this will be enough for the first go. I already have some maneuvers in mind for asteroid belt, but first lets get this in order and approved.

[Brend]

First off, I'd like to point out I did not discuss any of these ideas. The only thing I heard was a passing remark that Stuiter wanted to research some technologies, and that they were going to be defence-oriented.

Now, on to the actual proposals.

I notice that these technologies (both the defence zone stack and the system tactics) seem to be written with the idea that a combat takes place in the whole system. This is not how combat in a system works. There is a clearly defined Scope of Combat. Any defence zone not within the scope of combat is completely ignored. Furthermore, fleets do not have to move from the outer orbits to the inner, they can engage any valid target without travelling through the system.

That being said, there are some nice ideas in here, and some that are less so:

Asteroid assault tactics

I have no conceptual problems with this -- but due to how combat scoping works, I do not see a good use-case right now. Regardless, it should be more expensive, as asteroid belts give you double the zones for your invested , so there's zones a plenty. I would start out with 2000 / 6 and see how that fits in the total scheme.

Strategic defense system + Improved defenses

Upgrading Planetary Defence Zones is not something that is conceptually broken, but keep in mind that Defence Forces also give defence. The technology would have to be at least 3000 though, if the upgrade itself only costs 1000 . I'd also rather work some and maybe some into the price of the upgrade itself.

To elaborate: you safe 'half a zone' of construction in your system, allowing you to build something more profitable in that half-zone: 50 (goods per turn) * 0.25 (price per good) * 52 (a year) * 6 (player factor) = 3900 for the technology, minus 1000 zone construction.)

The military system is built around highly defendable worlds with base dots, defence forces and planetary defence zones. Offence is arranged through Fleets and Armies. By offering even more dots, it becomes possible to ignore Fleets, and to built a defence completely arround defence zones. I have not yet calculated this into the price increase, but it would only drive the price up, so this technology might be more expensive than I suggest.

Coordination assault tactics

This is basically a system-wide upgrade you're not paying for. Because of this, it is much too cheap. Furthermore, it is the second method of directly improving a defence zone's rating, so the price would automatically be doubled due to diminishing returns.

Thematically, I like this technology; the fact that remote defence zones can have some impact on the current combat scene seems interesting. But the implementation of the effect is just stacking another dot, which is boring.

General system tactics + System defense tactics + System attack tactics

Nope, nope, and nope. System or world combat styles is something that is not going to happen, no matter how much money you throw at it. The problem with this is that they completely invalidate actual Fleets.

The fact that worlds do not have the ability to use formations (i.e. combat styles for fleets) is very deliberate. They are already almost impossible to conquer without serious firepower. Furthermore, these styles seem to be based on the idea that the system fights as a single entity; which it does not do. And finally, these styles are giving a very large amount of dots, and can even be ugpraded by having planetary defence zones around -- which makes them yet another source of stacking dots.

Conclusion

I advice you to think about what you really want... Because it seems you just want to stack a lot of defence modifiers. Know that this won't actually keep you safe, as defence alone will just take more time to whittle down.

If you are looking for a way to protect your system, it might be better to look into building a Fleet, or asking someone else to station a fleet in your system. There are some players that have multiple fleets, and (warning: shameless self-promotion) I can assure you that the Veolians are willing to talk about putting one of those fleets in your sector to protect your worlds.

If you want to go the technology route: have a long and good look at On technology design, and make sure you know how the current combat rules work, and why they do so. If necessary, ask question in the questions forum to enhance your understanding of the rules.

If you're not as system-savvy as others, it might be useful to propose a technology direction, instead of trying to design the complete technology. Also keep in mind that it is easier to start out with one or two technologies, as these usually already provide enough discussion material for at least two pages worth of thread ^_^

And finally, a note on how these technologies appear in the game: it is very nice to have technologies be linked to some IC events: Jedi missions, technology summits, etc. Just proposing them OOC and adding them is considered more boring than having a good IC roleplay which somehow offers up the techs.

I'd like to hear the view of others on the proposed techs as well, as I'm just one guy.

[Dragonmaster352]

I agree with Brend on combat styles you propose.

One question: How does upgrading of a defence zone actually work? a defence zone produces 6 dots but what happens when you upgrade it? does it produce more dots or does it do something else?

ok that where three questions but hey...

[Elmer]

We have indeed talked about the idea that the Hiocan Society wanted more defence techs, but we haven't talked about anything concretely.

I like the general idea of making defence zones upgradable, but we have to balance them somehow so that fleets still can be a thread to your system. Otherwise the game would be just a matter of 'boxing in and be safe' which is dull. An idea what popped in my mind is making defence zones 'type oriented'. So can either upgrade them purely offensively or purely defensively. (Maybe a separate tech for both of them and create a beautiful tech-tree ^_^.) In response we can create some sort of 'anti defence zone tech', resulting in counter techs for counter techs etc. :P

I like the idea of building more on asteroid belts, but only defence zones is not very useful. Who is going to attack an asteroid belt? So maybe a tech that allows you to create a support zone on your asteroid belt? I think that I really like such a tech. (Also because I have 4 'useless' asteroid belts myself :P ). Though such a tech is going to be really expensive. Probably a special project for every single zone.

Allowing your defence zones from one orbit to provide bonus in another orbit is interesting, but I don't know yet how that would work without violating the Kinewa Conventions.

Before I create more ideas, I think that Brend is right that you should think of what you like aside more boring dots. :)

[Dragonmaster352]

Allowing your defence zones from one orbit to provide bonus in another orbit is interesting, but I don't know yet how that would work without violating the Kinewa Conventions.

I don't see how that violates the Kinewa Convention.

[Brend]

I think he means the fact that for weapons to be effective over such long ranges (ranges of 0.5 light-hour and such), they would have to manipulate hyperspace somehow -- and such things quickly escalate into hyperspace-affecting weaponry.

I think we can come up with some explanations for such things, I'd rather not have such a large stack of modifiers in technological form. Next to Planetary Defence Zones we already have Defence Forces, and Armies. So I urge Stuiter to have a look at those too, before we all spend a lot of time balancing these very impactful techs.

[Elmer]

Dammit you Brend, you are just before me :).

You have to shoot through an entire solar system for the tech to be applicable. This means that, if my very unreliable source of yahoo
answers is correct (couldn't a better one within a minute), your weapon has a travel time of 4 hours from the sun to Neptune when shooting the projectile with the speed of light. Shots that arrive 4 hours later are not very effective in battle, so the weapons need to be super fancy stuff, what basically breaks the Kinewa conventions:

- Quantum teleporting weapons: forbidden under the law of: Exotic-class bio-weapons, Backwards Time Travel and Hyperspace Disruptors.
- Hyperspace weapons: forbidden under the Third Kinewa Convention.

I cannot think of other effective weapons so far. But sending a shot through hyperspace is useless because it either will hit the planet and thus you attack yourself, or it will be useless as it has 0 momentum upon exiting hyperspace. Giving asteroids a hyperspace engine is already ruled out as effective weapon.

[Stuiter]

I prefer the technological route, but I do not know enough of the rules so I just used the other techs as reference. I do not really want to create a lot of dots. This first post was to create a basis which is quite general and then get to the cooler stuff.

I want to put a defense zone in my asteroid belt to make them more awesome and give them special (expensive) combat capacities. I want to pull things of like making disrupting signal (disable enemy sensor), create illusions (false data), hack their ship from afar and cut of communication and support of the enemy fleet (guerrilla tactics etc. ). So I might not have a lot of defense but with this I am able to lower the enemies attacks and give them a hard time.

By upgrading a defense zone you can unlock all kind of extra options. Just like creating a defense zone you lock in your dots once finished. Asteroid belts are indeed not interesting to attack. I do not see a problem with making the asteroid tech more general (also other support zones), but that will make it more expensive.

[Brend]

Stuiter, what you describe is already possible. The military system is very abstract, and leaves the exact details of how the ratings are achieved open to each player. So what you describe with "making disrupting signal (disable enemy sensor), create illusions (false data), hack their ship from afar" is actually your defence dots. Because all those things you describe, giving the enemy a hard time: that is your defence. You really do not need technologies for that.

I want to put a defense zone in my asteroid belt to make them more awesome and give them special (expensive) combat capacities.

Asteroid belts are indeed not interesting to attack.

I see a contradiction here. You agree that asteroid belts are not interesting to attack -- so why would you ever want to put (expensive) special combat capacities on them? They are never going to help you, as the enemy fleet would just skip your asteroid belts, and attack your home world directly...

[Mercury]

I'm not an expert on the combat system but I think we all went too deeply into the game mechanics here, which is leading to a discrepancy between what people want and what is being discussed.

I think I get what Stuiter is trying to explain:

The Hiocan Society is not a military minded world. They do not build huge armies and fortress space stations. Rather, they are a technologically focussed race which relies on advanced tactics and systems to defend itself. With the Mandalorian Threat ever growing, the Hiocan Society is looking for new - technologically sophisticated - methods to defend itself. I gather from the proposal that Stuiters primary goal is defence in a technical way, rather than offence or large armies, which makes perfect sense to me given the Hiocan Society's position.

Stuiter, could you confirm this is indeed what you are trying to accomplish? Once we've established what the goal is, we can then look at ways to implement this. I have already had some idea's but lets take things one step at a time and be clear on the goal first.

[Stuiter]

Let's leave the asteroid belt idea out and do that in another topic.

I want to mostly do a defensive technology based warfare. (maybe later I will get an army on intergalactic scale, as everybody can do basic martial arts). As Brend says special stuff is increasing your points, so we could do that. But what I was thinking of with the combat styles introduction is that you could just like fleet have various maneuvers/formation to do with planetary defense. This way you will have more strategic options.

I want to do a technical research approach based on ancient technology that is found in the ancient ruins on Erau. (This is from the time before the time of chaos and leaves enough options for later role-play and history.)

[Mercury]

Stuiter am I interpreting correctly that you want to engage in military encounters with the Hiocan society and that you want to build technologies that help you in this regard? Because I think with the current combat system you can already meet many of your intentions and we can develop a few technologies that are helpful.

As for that technology being founded on discoveries on Erau, I have no conceptual problem with this, so long as you pay according to the regular rules ^_^

That said, can you tell us purely in terms of fluff, not using any references to Fwurg or its combat system, what technologies the Hiocans would want to develop?

[Stuiter]

On one end you could go with increasing your defense zone. On the other you could create a new tech (Strategic battle system?) that allows a player to use maneuvers/formations on your planetary defense zone and armies. That would increases the value of good intelligence and preparation and you need then to make a strategic choice (just like a real general). Both would be interesting for me.

In game term for Strategic defense system + Improved defenses as Brend said that the technology should at leas cost 3000 and suggest using other products to do this. I would go for 4000 for the tech as defense powers are stack able. And for the upgrade do 500 (250 Natural life) and 500 (as capital ships are in space and not on a planet).

Mercury you said that you had some ideas would you please share them, I am getting curious.

[Brend]

But, this is all in mechanical terms. Can you describe from the an in-character point of view what the Hiocans want to achieve?

[Stuiter]

A way to defend themselves without needing a lot of fleets or armies. The Hiocans are quite peaceful , so they do not want to involved many people in warfare. They prefer technological solutions over more fleets/armies. But as only being defensive will not make your enemy go away, I also want some way to be aggressive for a short turn and efficiently do a strike so they are not so many casualties (on own side).

The Mandalorians are quite aggressive and have large amount of fleets so upgrading your defenses is necessary.

[Elmer]

Your story is clear, but as said previously, you can do that already. Make a defence zone and say that they exist out of hackers. Nowhere is stated that a defence zone must exist of guns and shields, and nowhere is stated that armies and fleets must be mobile guns and flying shields. An army of hackers is still an army.

Though I get your point of 'not many casualties'. I was playing with the idea of teching a droid army but haven't done anything with it yet. Of course you can fluff that you have an army of hackers and an army of droids. Voila, no losses.

What you should do is look at defence forces. They are at this moment underexposed at FWURG, but I think those are exactly the thing you want.

[Brend]

A way to defend themselves without needing a lot of fleets or armies. The Hiocans are quite peaceful , so they do not want to involved many people in warfare. They prefer technological solutions over more fleets/armies. But as only being defensive will not make your enemy go away, I also want some way to be aggressive for a short turn and efficiently do a strike so they are not so many casualties (on own side).

The Mandalorians are quite aggressive and have large amount of fleets so upgrading your defenses is necessary.

This wasn't exactly what I was looking for, though it helps me a lot with understanding what you want.

Can you write a little bit from a direct in-character point of view? For example, take on the role of a Hiocan researcher that has to pitch his research plan to those that decide whether he or she will get funding for the research. As this researcher, what would you say to convince them to fund your research?

[Stuiter]

Those defense forces are a good idea Elmer. Maybe a advanced army consisting of human and droids is also nice.
Brend I will come with the in-game things back on you later. (need some time to think it up)

[Brend]

Brend I will come with the in-game things back on you later. (need some time to think it up)

It doesn't have to be much, I just want to get the idea you have separated from the mechanics.

[Stuiter]

As I am not so good in long persuasion talks Brend. It would come to a efficient way to set up one central defense point, which offer a lot of options. You save a zone, do not need directly to have a army for good defense (offense) which cost upkeep.
Is that okay?

[Brend]

I didn't want a long persuasion talk, I actually only proposed that to get you thinking in less game-mechanical terms about what you would see as fitting military research for the Hiocans.

I think Elmer's suggestions fit well, especially the fact that you can easily fluff an army or defense force as consisting of Droids, cyberwarfare specialists and a high-tech sattelite network to back up your electronics and tech-based warfare.

The thing is, the system is only an abstraction, so you can easily declare that a defence force is made up of droids if you want to.