{Withdrawn Feature Request}: Pleasure/City Planet
Caldoss
Mercury
Brend
Elmer
Fedor
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{Withdrawn Feature Request}: Pleasure/City Planet
Caldoss » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:26 pm
I'd like to request the addition of the 'pleasure planet' as a special 
feature.
To qualify, the pleasure planet should be a terrestrial planet or moon in Goldilocks orbit with a Type I atmosphere, oceans and native life, possibly excluding some very un-pleasurable climate options. (Though this is admittedly more race-dependent.)
I'm not settled on a particular bonus. An increase to
along similar lines as increases to 
and 
in existing specials might be nice. Possibly including free upgrades to these facilities, but excluding trading via the holonet of the resources. (This is difficult with tourism.) Something else, like a bonus to population growth, might be cool too.
feature.To qualify, the pleasure planet should be a terrestrial planet or moon in Goldilocks orbit with a Type I atmosphere, oceans and native life, possibly excluding some very un-pleasurable climate options. (Though this is admittedly more race-dependent.)
I'm not settled on a particular bonus. An increase to
along similar lines as increases to and in existing specials might be nice. Possibly including free upgrades to these facilities, but excluding trading via the holonet of the resources. (This is difficult with tourism.) Something else, like a bonus to population growth, might be cool too.Last edited by Caldoss on Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mercury » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:43 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
The idea of a pleasure planet is great! I'd totally go for it.
Specials are rather exceptional. If you check the list they include things like Captured Moons, Frozen Oceans and a Tilted Axis. I don't really feel "pleasure planet" has the same factor of conditional scale, and what you are proposing is more of a cultural thing than a special part of system creation.
For one, even if your civilization falls and a new civilization arises which consists of grumpy nomads with bad attitudes, a captured moon will still be a captured moon, a water ocean in a cold orbit will still be frozen and the axis of a planet will still be tilted. But somehow I doubt the grumpy nomads with 'tudes would leave the world a pleasure planet.
In fact, we already have a special that takes into account that a planet is especially pleasant for a species, specifically "homeworld". It takes into account that the species living there actually evolved specifically for that world, meaning everything falls perfectly into place to be exactly right for that species. And in turn they can produce more. Even if a new culture arises, that bonus will still apply as the species will be biologically perfectly suited for the planet still.
Thus, I think you'd be better off creating a pleasure planet without a special. I would suggest loading the planet with entertainment zones. This will give the world focus in this area and allow it to get the desired entertainment bonus. Additionally, if you put a Type I atmosphere, natural life and oceans there, you'll find your species actually gets a growth bonus of 1% per decaturn. You'll also get free upgrades on your entertainment zones when you built them with your starting zones.
Specials are rather exceptional. If you check the list they include things like Captured Moons, Frozen Oceans and a Tilted Axis. I don't really feel "pleasure planet" has the same factor of conditional scale, and what you are proposing is more of a cultural thing than a special part of system creation.
For one, even if your civilization falls and a new civilization arises which consists of grumpy nomads with bad attitudes, a captured moon will still be a captured moon, a water ocean in a cold orbit will still be frozen and the axis of a planet will still be tilted. But somehow I doubt the grumpy nomads with 'tudes would leave the world a pleasure planet.
In fact, we already have a special that takes into account that a planet is especially pleasant for a species, specifically "homeworld". It takes into account that the species living there actually evolved specifically for that world, meaning everything falls perfectly into place to be exactly right for that species. And in turn they can produce more. Even if a new culture arises, that bonus will still apply as the species will be biologically perfectly suited for the planet still.
Thus, I think you'd be better off creating a pleasure planet without a special. I would suggest loading the planet with entertainment zones. This will give the world focus in this area and allow it to get the desired entertainment bonus. Additionally, if you put a Type I atmosphere, natural life and oceans there, you'll find your species actually gets a growth bonus of 1% per decaturn. You'll also get free upgrades on your entertainment zones when you built them with your starting zones.
Caldoss » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:06 pm
"Pleasure planet" doesn't need to be a cultural thing. For example, Risa from Star Trek was originally a dismal, rain-soaked, and geologically unstable planet covered with vast jungles and plagued by violent earthquakes. The native Risians transformed their world with a technologically sophisticated weather control network that provided nearly constantly desirable weather, and seismic regulators to eliminate the geological instability for optimum tourist comfort. (c/ping here).
An (ancient or not) artificial weather regulator would be around regardless of what grumpy peasants happen to inhabit the place at the time.
An (ancient or not) artificial weather regulator would be around regardless of what grumpy peasants happen to inhabit the place at the time.
Mercury » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:35 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
But terraformation already covers this. It seems to me like the Risians transformed their planet by altering its climate features (which include geological features in some sort of convoluted, bad-named stuff kind of way) and atmosphere.
How is what you're proposing going above and beyond a Type I atmosphere planet with pleasant climate features such as Abundant Flora, Hot Climate and Solidified Core, to name one possible example?
Even though I can see weather control satellites becoming a technology that can affect your world, I wouldn't qualify it as a special. Having an entire artificial moon constructed from scratch is a special. So I just don't think a few weather control satellites measure up.
I understand from your request that you want your planet to be especially comfortable, and I want to help with that, but I'm not seeing how what you are proposing is significantly more comfortable than any of the homeworlds in the Union, many of which are reasonably pleasant places to live, climate wise. I understand your world is just a little bit better in this area, but at the scale of a special, I'm thinking the difference between living on the South Pole during a tornado and living in the south of France during an especially pleasant summer. I just don't see that yet as a result of a slightly better rain schedule and 25 C instead of 23 C on a cloudless day.
This holds especially true when considering multiple races in the Union, some of which don't even breathe the same atmosphere, let alone enjoy the same weather conditions. There may very well be species that hate sunlight and much prefer cloudy days with rain and thunder. Hence why Homeworld requires a specific species to provide its bonus.
Could you explain exactly how you want your world to be more comfortable than other worlds? In other words, what makes your pleasure planet more pleasurable than a different world with a good climate? Then we can start thinking on how to best accomplish this objective, be it through specials, techs, roleplay, climate features or otherwise.
How is what you're proposing going above and beyond a Type I atmosphere planet with pleasant climate features such as Abundant Flora, Hot Climate and Solidified Core, to name one possible example?
Even though I can see weather control satellites becoming a technology that can affect your world, I wouldn't qualify it as a special. Having an entire artificial moon constructed from scratch is a special. So I just don't think a few weather control satellites measure up.
I understand from your request that you want your planet to be especially comfortable, and I want to help with that, but I'm not seeing how what you are proposing is significantly more comfortable than any of the homeworlds in the Union, many of which are reasonably pleasant places to live, climate wise. I understand your world is just a little bit better in this area, but at the scale of a special, I'm thinking the difference between living on the South Pole during a tornado and living in the south of France during an especially pleasant summer. I just don't see that yet as a result of a slightly better rain schedule and 25 C instead of 23 C on a cloudless day.
This holds especially true when considering multiple races in the Union, some of which don't even breathe the same atmosphere, let alone enjoy the same weather conditions. There may very well be species that hate sunlight and much prefer cloudy days with rain and thunder. Hence why Homeworld requires a specific species to provide its bonus.
Could you explain exactly how you want your world to be more comfortable than other worlds? In other words, what makes your pleasure planet more pleasurable than a different world with a good climate? Then we can start thinking on how to best accomplish this objective, be it through specials, techs, roleplay, climate features or otherwise.
Caldoss » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:04 pm
I get what you want to know. I'm writing up the internal politics of the faction now. That should hopefully clarify where I'm going with this.
Caldoss » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:31 pm
I'm about to go out for most of the night but I'd like to share my updated thoughts with you before I head out.
I might drop 'Pleasure Planet' (I still think it is a cool idea, just not one I'd purchase right now) in exchange for something to flesh out Caldoss. Would 'City Planet' or 'Ecumenopolis' be an appropriate topic for a special?
I might drop 'Pleasure Planet' (I still think it is a cool idea, just not one I'd purchase right now) in exchange for something to flesh out Caldoss. Would 'City Planet' or 'Ecumenopolis' be an appropriate topic for a special?
Mercury » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:46 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
I can see options there. It depends a tad on how its implemented. I'm curious to hear others on this, but I'm inclined to say yes.
Caldoss » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:26 pm
I'm easy on the benefits that this perk conveys, so long as it is similar in strength to other specials and is actually useful to me somehow. I'd be extra happy if the perk could facilitate the overcrowded populationwanking that I hope to do on that planet.
Mercury » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:56 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
Do you have a proposal of what you would like?
Brend » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:23 am
Caldoss wrote:I'd be extra happy if the perk could facilitate the overcrowded populationwanking that I hope to do on that planet.
4.7
in 19 zones -- you don't have overpopulation, and you're not getting overcrowdedness for the next 700 
The previous prediction is based on a species without growing characteristics -- 470 if you take both population growth increasers. (Remember: population growth is calculated in 10 ...)Though I'm not against having some kind of City Planet or Ecumenopolis theme going, I would rather make this something you can achieve in-game, rather than a special you take at the start. After all, you have the time to set some things up.
As a note: you are very free to fluff out worlds to be the ultimate tropical-island paradise, or the worst acid-rain hell without actually requiring a special. Most specials are something in the natural world, and very durable (except maybe Foreign Jedi..)
Caldoss » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:44 am
I'm not sure I am in the best position to make an exact proposal, because I don't have a precise feel for how strong a special should be and how it might work out in the game over both the long- and short term. To float a few ideas, though, a city planet might:
1) Be able to support double the population that its zones can support. (i.e. this 22 zone world can theoretically support 44 billion people in total). This is a bit of a weaksauce special, though, because by Brends calculation it would take 1400 to get to that point, rendering it useless. Even moreso on large planets.
OR
2) Discount population growth and have the maximum population allowed by the number of active zones at any given time, without the need to purchase it using biomass at the start. In this case, Caldoss would start with 11 billion people. This seems on the strong side and should come with some drawbacks. For example, the bonuses that a planet gets from high population might be reduced, or the supporting costs per unit of population might be increased to make such a planet very expensive to maintain. Also, to prevent Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel from occurring, any population that is killed or moved off-planet would still need to be manually replaced, using population growth. (A new zone would still add more people, but the planet would remain "under capacity", as it were.) I really like this option but it would need to be balanced properly. That, or a meta-rule that people can never be used to move off-planet from that world. In the specific case of Caldoss this makes perfect sense.
OR
3) Something else one of you thinks about. ;)
EDIT: in option 2, another option is possible that might be fun. Combine the doubling of the population-per-zone for the purposes of power requirement
but WITHOUT the productivity increase of having double the population.
1) Be able to support double the population that its zones can support. (i.e. this 22 zone world can theoretically support 44 billion people in total). This is a bit of a weaksauce special, though, because by Brends calculation it would take 1400
to get to that point, rendering it useless. Even moreso on large planets.OR
2) Discount population growth and have the maximum population allowed by the number of active zones at any given time, without the need to purchase it using biomass at the start. In this case, Caldoss would start with 11 billion people. This seems on the strong side and should come with some drawbacks. For example, the bonuses that a planet gets from high population might be reduced, or the supporting costs per unit of population might be increased to make such a planet very expensive to maintain. Also, to prevent Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel from occurring, any population that is killed or moved off-planet would still need to be manually replaced, using population growth. (A new zone would still add more people, but the planet would remain "under capacity", as it were.) I really like this option but it would need to be balanced properly. That, or a meta-rule that people can never be used to move off-planet from that world. In the specific case of Caldoss this makes perfect sense.
OR
3) Something else one of you thinks about. ;)
EDIT: in option 2, another option is possible that might be fun. Combine the doubling of the population-per-zone for the purposes of power requirement
but WITHOUT the productivity increase of having double the population.
Elmer » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:54 pm
well my thoughts on it:
option 1 is a good special, but it takes a very, very long time to fill your planet. When you take that special, you are almost obliged to take a lot of population as well otherwise it is a useless special. But having 44 on a planet is very good, as this increases the production with 44 on a designated product almost for free. And the population growth is good as well so it certainly has its benefits to go for it.
option 2 is way to good in my opinion. When someone takes a large planet and this special, he can get effectively 210
spend in population by putting all his zones on the large planet, and than have enough bio mass left for an atmosphere 1 with natural life. This can create a ridiculously good starting position. Especially as the population growth is through the roof.
having a certain amount of population which does not have any productivity is an interresting thought, however, increasing productivity is the only thing population actually does, so increasing it without increasing production is quite useless when looking with a economical perspective. From roleplay perspective it is still quite nice.
As I see it, you want to have your system divided in a sucky planet with a lot of population, and a very nice planet/moon with a small elite of population, and you like to spend a special to empathize this difference in worlds. Taking from there, we can create a special what does something with this difference, but already does that.
Another possibility is to have a special what gives you a certain amount of bonus starting population, but that is both pretty lame and not in line with the other specials.
The way I see it, I think you can best use the stuff we currently have to simulate your system, and if you want more population, you have to sacrifice from you system and put that in population.
What do other people think?
option 1 is a good special, but it takes a very, very long time to fill your planet. When you take that special, you are almost obliged to take a lot of population as well otherwise it is a useless special. But having 44
on a planet is very good, as this increases the production with 44 on a designated product almost for free. And the population growth is good as well so it certainly has its benefits to go for it.option 2 is way to good in my opinion. When someone takes a large planet and this special, he can get effectively 210
spend in population by putting all his zones on the large planet, and than have enough bio mass left for an atmosphere 1 with natural life. This can create a ridiculously good starting position. Especially as the population growth is through the roof.having a certain amount of population which does not have any productivity is an interresting thought, however, increasing productivity is the only thing population actually does, so increasing it without increasing production is quite useless when looking with a economical perspective. From roleplay perspective it is still quite nice.
As I see it, you want to have your system divided in a sucky planet with a lot of population, and a very nice planet/moon with a small elite of population, and you like to spend a special to empathize this difference in worlds. Taking from there, we can create a special what does something with this difference, but
already does that. Another possibility is to have a special what gives you a certain amount of bonus starting population, but that is both pretty lame and not in line with the other specials.
The way I see it, I think you can best use the stuff we currently have to simulate your system, and if you want more population, you have to sacrifice
from you system and put that in population.What do other people think?
Brend » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:20 pm
I might be a bit biased because one of my IC goals is having a lot of population...
That being said: I agree with Elmer that just getting all your zones filled is very good -- even if that part of the population doesn't given production bonusses, every 10 turns you get a nice 1.0 that does give this bonus.
And if we can somehow double your population by halving your production bonusses, this would still mean that we need to account for this specific special in every single rule that uses population in some way -- which could get messy fast.
I think that, because the having and growing of a population is a viable strategy and intrinsical part of the economic balance, it is difficult to muck about with it. Read that as: I don't see an immediate way to get some kind of overpopulation thing going; you'r world is just coming out of the times of chaos. Overpopulation is not something that happens during times of scarcity.
That being said: I agree with Elmer that just getting all your zones filled is very good -- even if that part of the population doesn't given production bonusses, every 10 turns you get a nice 1.0
that does give this bonus.And if we can somehow double your population by halving your production bonusses, this would still mean that we need to account for this specific special in every single rule that uses population in some way -- which could get messy fast.
I think that, because the having and growing of a population is a viable strategy and intrinsical part of the economic balance, it is difficult to muck about with it. Read that as: I don't see an immediate way to get some kind of overpopulation thing going; you'r world is just coming out of the times of chaos. Overpopulation is not something that happens during times of scarcity.
Brend » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:31 pm
I have an idea, though I don't see how this would be a ...
Normally, population can only be housed in developed zones. What if this special/racial characteristic allowed this population to live in undeveloped zones? That would be a neat thing; and would allow Caldoss to at least approach his 'the planets is scarcely civilized any more' theme from an intersting angle..
I'm note sure how to express this as a special though, but maybe someone else sees something in it.
...Normally, population can only be housed in developed zones. What if this special/racial characteristic allowed this population to live in undeveloped zones? That would be a neat thing; and would allow Caldoss to at least approach his 'the planets is scarcely civilized any more' theme from an intersting angle..
I'm note sure how to express this as a special though, but maybe someone else sees something in it.
Caldoss » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:40 pm
Elmer: I've given thought to the idea of min-maxing to a ridiculous degree and making this a system of asteroid belts with one large planet with a huge pop to get my 'goal', but a little more diversity seems like it would be more fun from an RP perspective. There's also very little I can viably scrap left in the current system proposal.
Though I like Brend's idea for the special, I'm not sure if it would have much of an effect. I think the number of zones on the home world is going to grow faster than population unless I specifically exclude the homeworld from any development whatsoever over an extended period of time. Or am I being a negative nancy here?
Option one would seem to me a balanced combination of both approaches, allowing an eventual bonus as well as "uncivilised" people living outside zones. i.e. allowing this planet to support double the population that its zones can support.
If it were possible, though, I really would like to be able to raise planet population quickly so this special actually comes in play. Either in the special itself or through alternative means. (Research? Clone babies? Something the Caldossi could decide to do IC?) Any suggestions on that?
Though I like Brend's idea for the special, I'm not sure if it would have much of an effect. I think the number of zones on the home world is going to grow faster than population unless I specifically exclude the homeworld from any development whatsoever over an extended period of time. Or am I being a negative nancy here?
Option one would seem to me a balanced combination of both approaches, allowing an eventual bonus as well as "uncivilised" people living outside zones. i.e. allowing this planet to support double the population that its zones can support.
If it were possible, though, I really would like to be able to raise planet population quickly so this special actually comes in play. Either in the special itself or through alternative means. (Research? Clone babies? Something the Caldossi could decide to do IC?) Any suggestions on that?
Brend » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:04 pm
I've already invested significant 
and time in in-game population raising, and it is not quick. I just don't see a way to get you a large number of peeps without you dropping loads of .
Though, if you really want to reach this goal, you at least have a collaborator in the univserse..
@Mercury: Your input might be useful.
and time in in-game population raising, and it is not quick. I just don't see a way to get you a large number of peeps without you dropping loads of .Though, if you really want to reach this goal, you at least have a collaborator in the univserse..
@Mercury: Your input might be useful.
Caldoss » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:08 pm
Yes, I am happy to work together IC towards means of raising population levels faster, to bring the City Planet special into play within the timeframe of playing this game. Having to research some tech together would be a good way of accomplishing this if I know this is possible. (Else I'm not going to waste a special on a purely theoretical advantage, and I don't think anyone else will!)
Mercury » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:48 pm
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Mercury - Storyteller
When I was working on the game system, I came up with a zone that actually has as sole function to house population. Perhaps we can work on a special that grants several such zones free of charge - since they don't impact population or production that wouldn't be unbalanced, though theoretically they could be re-engineered for alternative purposes cheaply... not sure if that's desirable. Let me think on this a bit, because on the one hand I want to grant you the ability to have a megalopolis, and on the other I understand Brends objection since having a large population is sort of his thing and I don't want to step on that.
I think we can find a solution here however.
I think we can find a solution here however.
Brend » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:55 pm
I am not opposed to others having large populations; but I won't like it if they get heaploads of population for free ^_^ Even if it gives them little in the way of production bonusses.
People can spend to get a lot of population, that's how it works. I view just doubling the population while halving the bonusses as a bit lame.
People can spend
to get a lot of population, that's how it works. I view just doubling the population while halving the bonusses as a bit lame.
Caldoss » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:07 am
It isn't even very important to me to start out with high . Although the population on the home world has to be much larger than the small niche populations on the moons, the absolute number of people living on this decimated planet at the start of the campaign isn't necessarily very high. As you can see in the race builder, I didn't even take both fertility feats. And the effect of the fertility feat that I did take is irrelevant on the Caldoss homeworld because it only has a type II atmosphere.
I'm looking to spend the on allowing me to have a city planet with the accompanying large population on that particular medium-sized planet. This shouldn't be an immediate effect: right now, most of it is a poisoned and decimated wasteland. However, realising the ambition of becoming a city-planet once again also shouldn't involve me still being on this forum when I retire at age of 70 or whatever the age is at that point. ;)
An undertaking from the storytellers that Brend and/or I might research cloning or some related tech at some point in order to make the "double pop per zone allowed" come into play would suffice for me to take it. Gives us a nice in-game goal, too.
. Although the population on the home world has to be much larger than the small niche populations on the moons, the absolute number of people living on this decimated planet at the start of the campaign isn't necessarily very high. As you can see in the race builder, I didn't even take both fertility feats. And the effect of the fertility feat that I did take is irrelevant on the Caldoss homeworld because it only has a type II atmosphere.I'm looking to spend the
on allowing me to have a city planet with the accompanying large population on that particular medium-sized planet. This shouldn't be an immediate effect: right now, most of it is a poisoned and decimated wasteland. However, realising the ambition of becoming a city-planet once again also shouldn't involve me still being on this forum when I retire at age of 70 or whatever the age is at that point. ;)An undertaking from the storytellers that Brend and/or I might research cloning or some related tech at some point in order to make the "double pop per zone allowed"
come into play would suffice for me to take it. Gives us a nice in-game goal, too.
Fedor » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:17 am
Caldoss wrote: As you can see in the race builder, I didn't even take both fertility feats. And the effect of the fertility feat that I did take is irrelevant on the Caldoss homeworld because it only has a type II atmosphere.
Type 2 atmosphere gives the normal population growth, the same as type 1 atmosphere. Meaning you would get 2.5% as things stand.
Brend » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:19 am
@Fedor: you beat me!
@Caldoss: Let me say it this way: If you don't spend the special on it, we can also reach our goals! You can then use the special for something entirely different to pimp up your system... Of course though, Mercury's proposal of starting out with some Arcology zones or Megacity zones might be interesting as well.
@Caldoss: Let me say it this way: If you don't spend the special on it, we can also reach our goals! You can then use the special for something entirely different to pimp up your system... Of course though, Mercury's proposal of starting out with some Arcology zones or Megacity zones might be interesting as well.
Caldoss » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am
I would get the pop growth yes but not the reduction in cost for pop growth. ;)
Anyway, yes, if there were an undertaking from the storytellers on cloning this would be good. I still like the idea of marking this planet as a special snowflake though. I guess ancient ruins could be said to cover this. Mercury, what do you think?
Anyway, yes, if there were an undertaking from the storytellers on cloning this would be good. I still like the idea of marking this planet as a special snowflake though. I guess ancient ruins could be said to cover this. Mercury, what do you think?
Brend » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:33 am
"This is Caldoss-Wakuu, the world where the Caldoss evolved. I was built up as a city-planet in prosperity going so far as to mine large chunks of their world into oblivion and replacing it with even larger cities and sprawling plaza's of art, and of course expensive wares. Then, during the times of chaos, the whole civilization came tumbling down, city-layer by city-layer, until the only thing that was left was a broken, acidified ball of rock, with the ancient ruins of its previous masters scarring the surface and the underground tunnels."
It is a special snowflake -- you slapped homeworld and ancient ruins and underworld on it O_o
Maybe you're looking to hard for a way to spent your last special point? You could just grab some captured moon somewhere, or drop a Jackpot: information on the world.
It is a special snowflake -- you slapped homeworld and ancient ruins and underworld on it O_o
Maybe you're looking to hard for a way to spent your last special point? You could just grab some captured moon somewhere, or drop a Jackpot: information on the world.
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