Fwurg

[Mercury]

I want to propose two new skill for the Jedi, contortionist and perception. The former fits nicely with Salia, whereas the latter is something I couldn't believe didn't exist yet, as it was so far handled solely by Vision checks, apparently o_O Maybe this was for a reason, but in that case, I don't recall what it was. I think the first can probably be sanctioned easily while the second needs some specific consideration.

====== Contortionist ======

<data !skill>
Description [wiki]: The Jedi is a capable contortionist, being able to squeeze into tiny spaces and bend with unnatural flexibility
Type: specialist
</data>

This skill covers specialist training in extreme physical flexibility. It can be used to squeeze into tiny spaces and narrow paths, though never through holes that are smaller than the Jedi's head (presuming a humanoid species).

Contortionist can likewise be used to escape cuffs, bonds and manacles as well as for contorting the body into unnatural positions, including dislocations of limbs.

====== Perception ======

<data !skill>
Description [wiki]: The Jedi has trained their senses to be extra sharp and notice details
Type: basic
</data>

This skill can be used to recognize unusual smells, notice small details and spot hidden things. It can also be used with equipment to enhance the senses, such as binoculars, but not with devices that give new abilities, such as infra-red camera eyes for cyborgs, chemical detectors and the likes. More generally, if a device translates what it perceives and feeds it to you in a different manner (which includes security camera's, night-vision, etc) it does not work. It also does not apply to remote sensing using the Force. As such, it could be used with the generic power of Force Vision, but not with the rank 2 or 3 power, for example.

((Moderator voice: Added names of skills to subject, so the overview shows a useful subject.))

[Brend]

I used my moderator voice to make sure we would be able to find the topic in the forum listing in the future "New Jedi Skills" is not exactly descriptive.

<snip> I think the first can probably be sanctioned easily <snip>

====== Contortionist ======

<data !skill>
Description [wiki]: The Jedi is a capable contortionist, being able to squeeze into tiny spaces and bend with unnatural flexibility
Type: specialist
</data>

This skill covers specialist training in extreme physical flexibility. It can be used to squeeze into tiny spaces and narrow paths, though never through holes that are smaller than the Jedi's head (presuming a humanoid species).

Contortionist can likewise be used to escape cuffs, bonds and manacles as well as for contorting the body into unnatural positions, including dislocations of limbs.

I see no problem with this skill. It is clearly a specialist skill, and it provides an area of expertise that is not yet present. (Once others agree, make sure to put it on the rules:contortionist_skill page, and add the Forum [forum]: 2730 field to link it back to this post.)

I'll post on the other skill tomorrow.

[Elmer]

I think contortionist is a perfectly viable specialist skill.

About perception: The problem with this I think that it is not really a skill as more as something a Jedi can do. Just like 'investigation' and 'holding your breath' are not skills is 'being aware of your surroundings' neither a skill. Although basic skills don't need to be paired with a specialist skill, it would be nice to think about that option with skills and I cannot think of a 'awareness' specialist skill.

[Jhovall]

I agree that the contortionist skill could be very nice.

I disagree with the perception skill. There is already force vision and perception of stuff is already possible. If you want these things, I suggest changing force vision, usually vision is very basic.

[Brend]

On the Perception proposal, I am leaning towards Elmer and Jhovall's position.

I have considered several points before taking this position, these arguments are elaborated below. Take note that I have only used "Perception Skill" to indicate the proposed skill, and "perception" as the normal noun. I would also like to note that the Vision Attribute's name "Vision" is the misnomer of the month, as it is about any type of perception.

• I support Elmer's argument on the proposed skill not really being a skill, but more an extension of the Vision attribute. The trick here is that we do have other skills that are more or less an extension of an attribute. I think of skills like Athletics Skill, Flight Skill, or Zero-G Mobility Skill, all of which are more or less based on Fitness Attribute, at first glance. However, on deeper inspection, these skills are not a direct extension, but describe a specific application. The Perception Skill described here appears not to be a specific application of Vision, but more of a metric of how well-honed a Jedi's Vision really is. But the well-honedness of a Jedi's perception is already expressed by the Vision attribute itself.
  
  Still, I think that there is a place for skills that primarily base their operation on the Vision attribute. In my opinion they should be applications of the Vision skill more than extensions of it. An example would be the specialist skill of "Echolocation", a skill based roughly on the real-world human echolocation that is put to great use by Jedi of species that have sensitive ears or are otherwise capable of feeling delicate vibrations. The skill would allow those Jedi trained in this way to estimate distances and their surroundings by making sound clicks or by feeling vibrations in water or air.

• The interaction with the rules with regard to using the Perception Skill untrained: By declaring this as a skill, we would also declaring that those that do not have it can not do this at all (for specialist skills) or can only do this at half force level (for basic skills). This means that everyone that wants to participate in any kind of investigative mission requiring sharp perception would need either very simple mysteries, or be forced to buy 1 dot of the Perception Skill to alleviate their condition.
  
  The previous line of reasoning is countered partially by the fact that the proposed Perception Skill can be used to "recognize unusual smells, notice small details and spot hidden things", that is, it is used for serious investigation, not simply for being aware of your environment. But drawing the line here will be difficult, what is being aware and noticing things in your environment, and what is serious investigation?

• There are a lot of "buts" in the skill's described method of operation: it works for devices that enhance existing senses, but not for devices that provide new senses. It does work for some Force power uses, but not for others. This amount of "buts" in the description makes me vary wary that this skill is trying to do something that does not cleanly mesh with the system -- many situations seem to require special thinking.
  
  Further, given the way I understand the system and the way we portray the Force in it, I see no clear reason for this skill not to work for remote sensing through the Force. Is a Jedi skilled in remote sensing not capable of being extraordinarily perceptive because the Force is not an extension of his personal abilities, i.e., is Force Vision in effect only an intangible invisible floating camera? I think that would put a much stronger stricture on how the Force is portrayed in our setting than we currently have.

In conclusion, my opinion on the Perception Skill is a firm "No thanks".

I add to my conclusion the note that I am not directly opposed to specialist investigator or perception skills in the game -- I think that the Echolocation example is not far-fetched given the wide range of natural abilities of different species. If you are interested in the investigative direction for a Jedi's ability, I also suggest looking into an earlier exchange on Force power: Force investigation as well, I think that a Force Power that allows preternatural perception in one or more ways is fruitful design space

(As an aside, the subject of sharpened sense did, in fact, also come up in a short exchange Mercury and me had in reaction to the Sith Holocron Ajava found during her Knight's trial: the idea there was to have some kind of devolution power that could enhance a sense by physically changing your body based on the genetic template of a genetic ancestor of your species... I have yet to write a proposal for that power.)

[Stuiter]

Furthermore we already have the Force power Force Vision.

[Jhovall]

If you actually read what was said before, stuiter, you would've noticed that this was already mentioned.

[Mercury]

I think Stuiter meant well, and though indeed it was said before, the point is correct regardless ^_^. Between that and the other arguments brought up here, I have been convinced that the perception skill as proposed is not a good idea.

My thinking in proposing it was that while we allow Vision checks, we have no way to represent a character who is exceptionally skilled in, for example, seeing things. Thinking about this, perhaps part of the problem is that having sharp vision or good ears is not actually a "skill" you learn, but rather an ability that you have or do not have. So possibly it in fact -is- better represented by the Vision attribute. (Echolocation would indeed be something you learn and as such would make a fine specialist skill - it'd certainly help any blind Jedi, for example)

The only issue I take with it, is that it will effectively mean that higher level Jedi will almost always have sharper senses than lower level Jedi. You cannot make a particularly hawk-eyed Jedi, for example, as your attributes are limited by your level. Perhaps this is to be expected with the former being more in tune with reality, though it still eliminates some possibilities.

Regardless, I can see the arguments against Perception and withdraw the proposal.

Since people generally seem to feel that Contortionist is a viable skill, and there have been exactly zero objections, I shall put it on the wiki as a new skill, probably this weekend.

[Brend]

The only issue I take with it, is that it will effectively mean that higher level Jedi will almost always have sharper senses than lower level Jedi. You cannot make a particularly hawk-eyed Jedi, for example, as your attributes are limited by your level. Perhaps this is to be expected with the former being more in tune with reality, though it still eliminates some possibilities.

Even with the Perception Skill this phenomenon would occur, albeit with less of a vengeance, since both Attributes and Skills are constrained by Force Level. (Math says: compare [15 = 5 Force Level + 5 Vision + 5 Perception Skill] and [15 = (7+x) Force Level + (7-x) Vision + 1 Perception Skill with x = 0..3].)

My opinion is that higher Force Level does not necessarily make one more capable of taking in all details, it simply makes one's eyes fall on the needed details... I would say that exceptional hawk-eyedness is not necessarily something that is expressed by the system (outside of Vision), but comes in large part from how you characterize your Jedi.


By the by, since I was already writing this post, I took the half minute necessary to put Contortionist on the wiki: Contortionist Skill, and to make the rules change announcement.